Kip Manifold Refurb

[2Biz]

I had a Kip 4 Solenoid Manifold on PS for about 4 years before one of the solenoids started leaking by....Since I have a blowdown system for PS which shares a foam gun with TF, it would eventually allow the hose and gun to freeze even though I have air shutoffs to the flojets. At first, I tried replacing the solenoid plunger even though it looked ok along with the SS seat...It still leaked to the bay...So I ended up putting a whole new manifold in which solved the problem...

After getting it home and taking the manifold apart, I quickly discovered the seat wasn't the issue. The brass between the block and SS base was washed out between the two orings. About .020" deep washout checking it with an indicator....Interesting enough, the manifold didn't leak to the outside, it leaked past the smaller oring towards the center and then to the bay...

I'm sure others have had this issue with washout using PS and brass....But don't throw the block away...It can be skim milled for at least another use...See attached...There was still about .060" clearance after milling at the base of the threaded SS seat and the manifold....Plenty of clearance for flow...

I doubt I put another brass manifold on this function...Actually looking for a SS manifold instead. I found Dema and GC makes one. But pricey at $230+. Does anyone know if Kip has a SS manifold? That way I can at least use the SS Kip parts I currently have....

 

[Randy]

That really sucks. Brass manifolds are great if you’re not using them for any corrosive chemicals like Presoak. We make our manifolds for presoak with ¼” Kip valves, 1/4” stainless steel “Tees” and ¼” hex nipples. We've never have had one leak yet.

 

[MEP001]

I'd bet there was a defect that allowed the flow which caused the larger washout. Did you happen to measure the area of normal flow to see if it had eroded from the chemical?

I like that the manifold can be milled, but since the average person doesn't have access to a milling machine, the same thing could be done with wet-or-dry sandpaper glued to a thick piece of paper. In fact I'd recommend doing that with your milled manifold to remove the revolution marks for a better seal.

 

[2Biz]

I'd bet there was a defect that allowed the flow which caused the larger washout. Did you happen to measure the area of normal flow to see if it had eroded from the chemical?

I like that the manifold can be milled, but since the average person doesn't have access to a milling machine, the same thing could be done with wet-or-dry sandpaper glued to a thick piece of paper. In fact I'd recommend doing that with your milled manifold to remove the revolution marks for a better seal.

No defect....There are 2 o'rings that seat against the brass block. The 2 shiny areas are where the o'rings seat. Fluid comes up through the brass from the 2 smaller holes and up into the SS seat with the plunger. When the plunger lifts, it allows flow back down the larger center hole in the brass block then to the outlet ports...

The washout was between the 2 o'rings on the brass block. Where the o'rings seat on the brass was the same height. There was actually more washout on the bay that leaked, but it is also my most busy bay....Still looking for a SS alternative. Just suprised Kip doesn't make something. Or I just haven't found it yet...I don't know if Randy's suggestion will work for my setup, but will look into it as an alternative. The individual SS Kip solenoids are bullet proof!

 

[Greg Pack]

I've just always used GC and had good luck with them. They used to sell a stainless model that used nickel plated brass plungers (Coleman used these)and they would eventually start leaking, but now as I understand they are all stainless.

 

[MEP001]

I understand how the solenoids work, but it looks to me the only leakage is past the outer o-ring to atmosphere since there's staining on the block outside the cartridge. The inner o-ring seating area looks clean and IMO shouldn't have been leaking past to outlet.

The individual SS Kip solenoids are bullet proof!

This came off my trifoam system (They were using Stinger chemicals before I took it over):

The hole is channeled completely through to the outlet port. They all had some degree of damage and were totally stopped up with something that looked like rust. This is the only time I've seen such severe damage.

After the freeze we just had, I've discovered what we use for bay soap is highly aggressive to brass. At some point soon I'm going to remove the clusterfudge of fittings and valves under the tanks and build a stainless manifold for each wash to mount on the wall.

 

[MEP001]

I've just always used GC and had good luck with them. They used to sell a stainless model that used nickel plated brass plungers (Coleman used these)and they would eventually start leaking, but now as I understand they are all stainless.

The coils go bad, but yes, the all stainless ones are much better aside from freeze damage. It will push the hex nut at the base of the stem right off the threads.

 

[2Biz]

I understand how the solenoids work, but it looks to me the only leakage is past the outer o-ring to atmosphere since there's staining on the block outside the cartridge. The inner o-ring seating area looks clean and IMO shouldn't have been leaking past to outlet.


This came off my trifoam system (They were using Stinger chemicals before I took it over):

The hole is channeled completely through to the outlet port. They all had some degree of damage and were totally stopped up with something that looked like rust. This is the only time I've seen such severe damage.

After the freeze we just had, I've discovered what we use for bay soap is highly aggressive to brass. At some point soon I'm going to remove the clusterfudge of fittings and valves under the tanks and build a stainless manifold for each wash to mount on the wall.

I know what you are saying and know what it looks like, but this manifold never dripped...The leak got passed the center oring. Had to be. The SS seat part looked perfect, not at all like the one you posted a picture of. Plus I changed the whole SS assembly with new on the affected bay...Along with a New plunger...Still leaked out to the bay. It would only leak a few pumps on the flojet until it ran low on air pressure...I have shutoff solenoids to the flojets...But it was just enough to collect in the base of the hose in the affected bay and freeze...Even after the blowout and Washer fluid injection cycle...Or another bay was used and pressurized the manifold.

I might have to eventually look into getting the GC or Dema that has a SS block....Or just reverse engineer a Kip and make my own manifold out of SS! The tricky part would be the metering valve ports!

 

[MEP001]

The tricky part would be the metering valve ports!

I absolutely hate metering blocks. I know you don't usually have to get to them more than once to set them, but even that is such a pain, not to mention just getting tubing fittings in them. And I suspect that an aggressive chemical is going to eat away the brass block under the metering screw. I was back at a wash yesterday where I replaced their liquid solenoids with Kips a few years ago and meant to get a picture but forgot. Anyway, I mounted the solenoids coming off the tree to the right and turned the coil down about 45 degrees. The screws are really easy to get to that way, plus I fashioned a little chute out of an old license plate to hook over the valve below the one you're working on so when you take the stem out the rest of the stack doesn't get chemical on them. The old guy loves it. I plan on doing it that way from now on.

I checked Kleen-Rite, and the individual valves with metering are a bit cheaper per valve than the metering block per outlet.

 

[2Biz]

I've also thought about getting a 1/4" NPT SS air manifold and mounting the individual KIP SS metering solenoids to it with push connects and poly tubing....But still have the issue of the metering valve on the side and you couldn't get to it. The only thing you could do is space the ports out far enough to where it wouldn't be an issue rotating the valve to get to each of the metering screws. That makes the manifold pretty long for the space I have available...

Snap a picture of what you are talking about...The metering screws to my FB and PS are easy to get to mounted as is...Screws are on the bottom of the block. But making any kind of other SS manifold is going to be challenging. Might have to bite the bullet and get a Dema...Or GC....BTW, I just checked the SMC brass push connects. The wall thickness of the fitting at the threads is over 1/8" thick...Not even a measurable difference between a new one and the ones I took out. A lot more meat than the Old Days paper thin Brass compression fittings. Those ended up biting me in the A$$!

 

[MEP001]

I always end up with the manifolds vertical with the screws facing each other without enough room. Your setup makes all the difference in the world.

FWIW I know an operator who uses flow meters, but he uses just one per stack. I haven't tried it to confirm, but he says it doesn't restrict flow when multiple bays running.

 

[2Biz]

FWIW I know an operator who uses flow meters, but he uses just one per stack. I haven't tried it to confirm, but he says it doesn't restrict flow when multiple bays running.

What's the point in that? I have a flow meter for each bay PS and FB...That way I can set flows "Equally" to each bay regardless of Head Pressure difference from the tubing length to each bay.

 

[MEP001]

He might do what I would, get one bay working then mark the flowmeter to set the rest.

 

[water guy]

I understand how the solenoids work, but it looks to me the only leakage is past the outer o-ring to atmosphere since there's staining on the block outside the cartridge. The inner o-ring seating area looks clean and IMO shouldn't have been leaking past to outlet.


This came off my trifoam system (They were using Stinger chemicals before I took it over):

The hole is channeled completely through to the outlet port. They all had some degree of damage and were totally stopped up with something that looked like rust. This is the only time I've seen such severe damage.

After the freeze we just had, I've discovered what we use for bay soap is highly aggressive to brass. At some point soon I'm going to remove the clusterfudge of fittings and valves under the tanks and build a stainless manifold for each wash to mount on the wall.

Stinger Chemicals is really some rough stuff to use.

 

[MEP001]

I mounted the solenoids coming off the tree to the right and turned the coil down about 45 degrees. The screws are really easy to get to that way

I didn't get a picture of it mounted because at the moment it's just crammed into a GinSan 3-compartment system to get the tire cleaner back up and running. It's not real obvious in the picture, but the screws are easily accessed with a regular screwdriver. The 2" long nipple on the tree leaves room to reach the screw. Normally it leaves room to change the solenoid without removing the stem (I've had to more than once), but the angle of the one above it doesn't leave room.

 

[water guy]

is that ginsan system a champion that your using this manifold on?