Looking for more foam for our in-house wash system

[Lawn Lad]

I'm hoping to find answers on how we can improve the foam/soap application through our in-house mini-system. I was hoping to better replicate a foam cannon application through our HP system. Is this possible?

A little back ground... For our landscaping and snow plowing business we upgraded our wash bay area with some National Pride equipment this last week - so we're still working out the bugs. Previously we simply had an electric cold water Karcher (4.2 GPM/2,000 psi) pressure washer - and used a foam cannon to apply soap. After buying a Mossmatic undercarriage/chassis cleaner from National Pride we got into a discussion on how to improve our efficiency for our in-house cleaning of trucks and equipment.

Because our goal is not servicing the public but rather providing a more efficient in-house cleaning process - I'm looking for advice on how to apply a foam that sticks better (applied through the pressure wand) allowing us to get around the vehicle to scrub before it sloughs/falls off the vehicle. Our new system seems to be putting the soap on too thin, so we're loosing the soap and lubricity.

Our upgrade included a hot water tank with a goal of using warmer water with a mixing valve, and the system from National Pride (control center/selector switch/manifold plus overhead boom/wand) to provide a cold water and hot water rinse as well as soap and Salt-Away product application through the pressure washer.

So far the soap we've tried using is 'Bus Soap' from JaxWax at a goal of about 1/2 oz/1 gal water (256:1 orifice). The Bus Soap foamed adequately through the foam cannon, but the current tests are applying a thin/watered down soap. Its possible to wash by applying several times as we work around the vehicle, but this decreases efficiency.

Any suggestions on how we can improve performance with possible tweaks? Thanks in advance for helping a stranger/non-industry guy.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

It sounds like you want sloppy foam like a foam brush, but you want it from a high pressure wand. I don't think you will ever get what you desire, but why do you want all of that foam? Foam is mostly just "show". Also, what is your water hardness? If you don't have soft water you will most likely spend a bunch of time just chasing your tail.

 

[Lawn Lad]

I will pick up a water hardness testing kit - thanks for the suggestion.

My thought is that while foam is fun, it is more a matter of applying the soap to the truck and having enough time to come behind and wash with the brush/mitt. Right now it seems as if the soap/foam falls off the truck and the wash brush has more (re: too much) friction. Is there a way to increase the stick factor of the soap so we have a few more minutes to wash?

 

[robert roman]

“Any suggestions on how we can improve performance with possible tweaks?”

I would work on process.

For example, going around in circles to clean vehicle is not efficient. This is probably reason for drying issue, current process takes too long.

An efficient way to “hand wash” vehicle is working in a team of two people, splitting the vehicle in half.

Soak it with detergent, high-pressure it, brush it, rinse it, working top down, front to back.

Four passes, vehicle is washed and rinsed, takes less time.

Another approach is to soak it with detergent, high-pressure it, then use waterless carwash product with microfiber towels to wipe and dry.

Waterless leaves behind glaze that works like a wax, so vehicles are easier to clean next time, takes less time and less cost.

Either approach works for step-vans, pick-up trucks and passenger vehicles.

 

[tdlconceptsllc]

Hey buddy if your washing heavy equipment and landscaping equipment you want a Top Quality Hi PH Preasoak applyed through your HP trigger gun at a Low pressure with Air so it bubbles up and sticks to the equipment. I don't know if your system has a Flowjet LO pressure pump and a hydrominder storage tank. This would allow you to walk around the truck apply Lo pressure give some dwell time and rinse off with high pressure rinse. I have sold good preasoak to my brother and he commercially pressure washes log skiders in the woods for some customers and they look awsome when he is done he gets a huge pump up sprayer and mixed the Presoak very strong and applyes and HP rinse after. National pride make good equipment so if you have the low pressure option on your machine that would be better than any foamy brush applicator. Contact your local Carwashdistributor for a Top Quality HI Ph Preasoak. This would make all the oil grease dirt and grime just melt right off.

 

[mrfixit]

I know what your looking for. And the heavy sticking foam not only gives better dwell time but also working time.

With hp injection no, not even close. It will always be runny, you may be able to up the concentration to get a better effect. 121:1, maybe 75:1.

A low pressure foam system with air assist would work better through the hp nozzle.. Do you have an air compressor onsite. But still it's probably going to give you less than a minute of cling time 30-40 seconds.

A true heavy foam setup would be better.. Air injects with the solution and then goes through a foam generating material pot scrubbers or bio balls, to thicken the foam like shaving cream before ejecting out the nozzle.

The easiest to acquire set ups I have seen are pressure tank based. like the pump up tanks.. I recently saw one for cleaning semis and stuff. Serious foam out that sucker, simple and easy..

 

[MEP001]

I don't like these guys because they've posted a video on how to "rip off" a self-serve car wash, but this might be what you want:

[video=youtube_share;HqUEirOEyaw]https://youtu.be/HqUEirOEyaw?t=186[/video]

 

[robert roman]

Foaming cannon is a gimmick to sell equipment and soap to mobile detailers, detail shops and new car dealerships.

Look at this guy, faster talker like Oxi-Clean pitchman. For example, he says “foam pulls off dirt faster than traditional wash processes.” How does that occur, what processes are those and how much faster?

Notice how he doesn’t clean top-down or front to back. Then he brings in second guy to help because it’s taking forever to foam it, scrub it, rinse foam (and more water to do so) and then dry it.

Why long to dry?

Because alkaline that is allowed to dwell and dwell strips off wax and imparts hydrophilic property that causes water to cling to surface making drying more difficult – greater the pH, the stronger the effect.

BTW, where is the runoff is going – down storm sewer drain? I wouldn’t do that either.

I would not use foam cannon because it would add ten minutes to “total time” it normally takes to hand wash a vehicle.

The larger the size of the “fleet” and bigger the vehicle, the more important this becomes.

Sticking foam may seem to make sense because most people don’t know how to hand wash efficiently and soapy water dries up.

 

[MEP001]

Foaming cannon is a gimmick to sell equipment and soap to mobile detailers, detail shops and new car dealerships.

Maybe, but the OP wants foam and the device appears to work well.

Look at this guy, faster talker like Oxi-Clean pitchman.

So? OxiClean works as promised, in fact it went from a "sold on TV" product to being on the shelves of almost every store that sells laundry detergents, and there's even a Tide product that contains it.

Notice how he doesn’t clean top-down or front to back. Then he brings in second guy to help because it’s taking forever to foam it, scrub it, rinse foam (and more water to do so) and then dry it.

Why long to dry?

Because alkaline that is allowed to dwell and dwell strips off wax and imparts hydrophilic property that causes water to cling to surface making drying more difficult – greater the pH, the stronger the effect.

BTW, where is the runoff is going – down storm sewer drain? I wouldn’t do that either.

All off-topic.

I would not use foam cannon because it would add ten minutes to “total time” it normally takes to hand wash a vehicle.

You also wouldn't use a foam brush at a self-serve, yet it's the most profitable cycle.

 

[Lawn Lad]

Thank you all for weighing in, I'm trying to take in the advice and apply it properly.

If I understand correctly, HP foam is not possible, at best I'll have a runny soapy mixture. Foam for the sake of foam to me is not important - just looking for good cleaning and time to work on the vehicle. Excluding the marketing factor, how essential is foam/suds to the cleaning process or effectiveness of the wash? I think I'm reading two different opinions here. We are testing different rinse/wash/rinse methods working either single or in two person team to see where we can improve efficiency.

Is there advice on type of soap that should be used for our purpose? I see that a higher pH soap strips wax, making drying more challenging, which I get. But do we benefit from the cleaning power of the more alkaline product, is there a compromise?

 

[mrfixit]

Add a foam brush maybe?

Do it like we do hand bays.. Wash off dirt, grit, and grime with hp soap, guys follow with foaming brushes using neutral or slightly acidic foam brush soap. No worry of time cause foam is feeding constantly at the rate you set it to. Then follow back behind them with hp rinse. You want the surface nuetral or more acidic when done, to help drying. However it may be a hassle with hoses depending on shop space... You may need to add a boom to handle the hoses and keep them off the floor. If its a problem.

 

[Lawn Lad]

We invested in the overhead boom which we plan to use primarily with a wand. In this picture its attached to the undercarriage pressure washer as we were just testing things out. We anticipate our normal set up to be the hose wand on the overhead hose to wash the trucks and the undercarriage unit attached to the wall mounted reel/hose. We won't run both simultaneously as we don't have the pressure, but it will help reduce time otherwise required to disconnect/reconnect accessories.

View attachment 812

 

[mrfixit]

Looking nice!

See here...
https://www.dultmeier.com/catalog/0.48.687
(Or kleenrite is closer to you for shipping)

Everything you need, they also have a "foam gun" there at the top. Foam pro $60.

If you want to use a standard no hose brush go foam gun.. but a foaming/flowing brush is better and safer with the flow to eject rocks and grit from the bristles. But also more money and more equipment to install, and more foam at the drain with the brush running foam. That can be dialed back though to the preferred foam rate and chemical strength.

 

[robert roman]

“….how essential is foam/suds to the cleaning process or effectiveness of the wash?”

Absolutely, ZERO.

“Soap” bubbles are not necessary to clean.

“….we are testing different rinse/wash/rinse methods working either single or in two person team to see where we can improve efficiency.”

I’ve given you solid advice on process – work in teams of two persons and SOP for hand washing.

I have lots of evidence and experience as wash and detail shop owner/operator, manager and general manager that two persons can accomplish more in less time working together as a team rather than individually.

Trust me someone on this site will say it isn’t so.

“Is there advice on type of soap that should be used for our purpose?”

Consider fundamentals of cleaning first and then learn the chemistry.

What is the subject - light to medium-duty commercial vehicles and various equipment (riding lawn mowers, trailers, snow plow rig, etc.).

Equipment is not painted with the same type of paint used on LDV’s.

Mowers, plows, HDV’s, etc. are coated with a type of paint where the pigment (color and effects) is contained in the top coat. Top coat of LDV’s is different type of paint resin without pigment or clearcoat.

So, each requires different cleaners.

Bus soap is made for buses and HDV’s and can be used to clean equipment.

LDV’s should be cleaned, shined and protected like passenger vehicles. This means using products designed for clearcoat paint.

 

[rph9168]

I think I should qualify the role of foam in cleaning. While a decent detergent does not have any more cleaning power when foamed, foam can enhance the dwell time which can assist in the cleaning process. Foam guns can be a good way to clean a truck or bus if allowed to stay on the surface before using a brush on it. I worked for a company that sold a truck/bus manual cleaning system in which a foam gun was an essential part. The system worked well.

If you are trying to clean touch free, too much foam can inhibit the cleaning power of the second application of chemical by not allowing it to make good contact with the surface. The company I worked for back in the 80's was one of the originators of true touch free chemicals. Our initial chemicals produced very little foam but did a great job. The problem we had was that wash customers could not see the chemicals being applied because there was not foam. They thought all that was happening was only water being applied so we had to introduce some foaming into the products for "show". The result was that we also had to reformulate the products because the foam was inhibiting the cleaning. It took us a while to balance the foaming action with the cleaning ability of the products.