Metal Halide to LED bulb

[1carwash1]

We want to retire our 400 Matal Halide bulbs and replace them with LEDs. The current fixture is a canopy mounted box with plastic lens. The most cost effective solution appears to utilize the existing fixture and remove the ballast & bulb and directly wire the socket to the existing power. What we are having trouble understanding is how to size a LED bulb to get comparable light output. It seems that replacement LED bulb lumens are less than their Metal Halide equivalent (why?). How can a LED bulb of lesser lumens be comparable or equivalent to a Metal Halide bulb of higher lumens? Any suggestions on what bulb to use? Thanks

 

[BBE]

Our 320 watt scottsdale metal halides have a 103 watt LED conversion kit for them if that gives you an idea of comparable output.

 

[cwguy.com]

http://www.nofs.navy.mil/about_NOFS/darksky/lumentab.html

This is because Metal Halide bulbs are directing light is all directions unlike leds. But I believe you can not really get an honest comparison unless you got a lux rating for the housing.

 

[MEP001]

The best way to utilize LED conversion is to direct all the light where you need it. As mentioned, metal halides light everything, and BBE's Scottsdale conversion changes the light output from a 270° sphere to directed almost all straight down, so even though it's rated less lumens it lights the same area below the fixture just as well (if not better). Because of this, I don't think you'll be happy replacing your metal halide bulb with an LED bulb because you'll get less light with most of it wasted.

 

[loewem]

Here is a decent explanation for your question. http://www.innovativelight.com/hid-vs-led-lighting/.

I've found that the specs on lighting can be misleading and I also think that lighting is a you get what you pay for type of purchase. I've been looking for some LED flood lights. There is a 240 watt fixture made by LE for $299 that has solid reviews (4 out of 5 or 5 out of 5 stars). I've found cheaper 240 to 300 watt fixtures and the reviews are not very good.

Three years ago I changed my 400 watt metal halide fixtures to 105 watt CFL bulbs. I did one fixture as CFL and compared it to a new metal halide set up. The CFL was a big improvement, so I changed to CFLs in all of my fixtures. About six months ago I saw what I thought was a good deal on a 79 watt LED fixture, so I bought one. I had one of my CFLs fail about six weeks ago, so I installed the LED and put a new CFL in a closely located fixture. Even though the 79 watt LED was rated at less lumens than the 105 Watt CFL it was a significant improvement. It is confusing and difficult to know exactly what you are purchasing, so you might want do a test for comparison before you go all in on upgrading.

Good luck.

 

[cwguy.com]

Watts have nothing to do with the light output... That is the power consumption. Lumens and lux are the measurements for light output.

Also the lux measurement would account for light waist. It would help with an easier comparison.... I believe.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Our 320 watt scottsdale metal halides have a 103 watt LED conversion kit for them if that gives you an idea of comparable output.

I also recently got the Jarvis retrofits of 103 watt and they are great . I was concerned because they are 4 LEDs vs the earlier ones that had 6 and were rated at 140 watts. These seem to do the same if not a better job than the 320's . I had replaced some 400 W unitts in my Tunnel with 150 W Units from Kleen Rite and they are outstanding - better than the 400 W.

 

[Eric H]

I just purchased these: https://www.amazon.com/Derlights-Re...&qid=1473931917&sr=8-1&keywords=derlights+65w
A couple of days ago. Have not received them yet but I have a 250w Equivalent that I purchased locally, for about $150, that looks great.
I'll report back when I have them installed.

 

[Car_Wash_Guy]

I just purchased these: https://www.amazon.com/Derlights-Re...&qid=1473931917&sr=8-1&keywords=derlights+65w
A couple of days ago. Have not received them yet but I have a 250w Equivalent that I purchased locally, for about $150, that looks great.
I'll report back when I have them installed.

Please do. I was ready to pull the trigger and try two, but am not sure what wattage to get? I currently have 175MH in the bays, and I feel they are a bit low on the light output.

 

[mjwalsh]

Eric is right ... Lumens or Lux along with the directional gain is what to look at. I just bought & received a previously not mentioned light ... at the following link for illuminating an outdoor sign. The 3750 Lumens has proved to be very impressive in my mind upon testing. Notice, they have choices for even higher lumens along with the corresponding more wattage required. http://www.lightingever.com/50w-super-bright-led-flood-lights-dw.html The outfit appears to be comparing to HPS High Pressure Sodium without the light quality trade-off.

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com

 

[Randy]

Please do. I was ready to pull the trigger and try two, but am not sure what wattage to get? I currently have 175MH in the bays, and I feel they are a bit low on the light output.

John, a Metal halide light bulb slowly punks out as it ages. After they have been installed about 18 months they are at about 50% of their initial lumens. How old are your 175 watt MH bulbs? I'd replace the 175 watt MH with LED's in a heart beat. I replaced my 8' HO fluorescent tubes with 8' LED tubes in my bays, best thing I've done in a long time, it was easy and has saved me a lot of money on my power bill.

 

[MEP001]

Eric is right ... Lumens or Lux along with the directional gain is what to look at. I just bought & received a previously not mentioned light ... at the following link for illuminating an outdoor sign. The 3750 Lumens has proved to be very impressive in my mind upon testing. Notice, they have choices for even higher lumens along with the corresponding more wattage required. http://www.lightingever.com/50w-super-bright-led-flood-lights-dw.html The outfit appears to be comparing to HPS High Pressure Sodium without the light quality trade-off.

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com

They often compare light output to something with great optimism, but I don't care what they say. You CANNOT get the same light per watt (and certainly not three times that) from an LED as you can from a high-pressure sodium without severely reducing the life expectancy.

 

[cwguy.com]

They often compare light output to something with great optimism, but I don't care what they say. You CANNOT get the same light per watt (and certainly not three times that) from an LED as you can from a high-pressure sodium without severely reducing the life expectancy.

You are correct.... It is hard to honestly comparing LEDs to HPS or LPS. Well they do try to compare them.... but they will not say LEDs are more efficient.

According to the Navy's "Typical Lumen Outputs and Energy Costs for Outdoor Lighting" table. http://www.nofs.navy.mil/about_NOFS/darksky/lumentab.html

Low / High-pressure sodium lights produce around 2x led lumens output per watt.

Quality LED brands like CREE.... are more efficient, expensive and get better every year. But I would at least try for a light with a website.

Also according to the table.... LED lumens output decreased over time.

 

[Car_Wash_Guy]

John, a Metal halide light bulb slowly punks out as it ages. After they have been installed about 18 months they are at about 50% of their initial lumens. How old are your 175 watt MH bulbs? I'd replace the 175 watt MH with LED's in a heart beat. I replaced my 8' HO fluorescent tubes with 8' LED tubes in my bays, best thing I've done in a long time, it was easy and has saved me a lot of money on my power bill.

Never knew that. I replaced them when I opened my wash up last July, so about 14 months.

Thanks for the info!

 

[MEP001]

I've found if you replace both the bulb and the capacitor the bulbs are brighter and stay bright longer, but at this point I won't waste any more time or money on metal halides.

 

[cmacar]

over the past year and half we have been replacing 250 watt metal halide lights in all our car washes, some fixtures were install with a screw in 80 watt led bulb and removing old transformer and installing one led light bulb wired in a 120 volt. this was done as a labor saver and the old fixtures were still good. Some locations received the new led designed fixtures as an up date and added that newer look in lighting. along the way we added some motion sensors with led fixtures as a security feature in the vending areas.
Some low life people do not lights going on and it has reduced some problems. We found that the 80 watt bulb cost about $ 150 and repairing an older fixture metal light fixture with bulb and transformer kit/ labor to cost $250. but the led with a lot longer life and ease of maintance and electrical cost.

 

[cwguy.com]

There are lots of studies that state that LEDs reduce labor and replacement cost. Cree has a couple on their site I believe?

It is interesting that you replaced a 250w MH with a 80w LED.... the lumens are 1/2 as much (guess). I wish someone would make a before and after comparison. Also give the light fixture they used..... plus a lux reading. Using something like this: http://amzn.to/2ckDmQu

(I just picked a random led bulb and I added the links for reference.) Note the hours and lumens.

$10.30 MH 250W Rated 10,000 hours 24,000 LM https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/88105/PX-MS250.html

$150 Hyperikon 80W Rated 50,000 hours 10,400 LM http://amzn.to/2cQGTbc

 

[Earl Weiss]

About 2 years ago I struggled with Lumen Comparison of LED vs. MH. The recommended equivalent LED for MH was far fewer lumans. I took a chance and bought a replacement fixture for the 400W in the Tunnel from KR. Bought the 150W (Actual) Light was better than the 400W. Bought about 20 More for 3 Tunnels. Followed Same Procedure trying one Jarvis retrofit for the 320W Scottsdales. - Tried it and Bought 9 More. Followed same procedure for some Vac Island and Parking Lot lights. So, Luman ratings aside, my lying eyes tell me 1/3 the wattage gives the same light. Where possible I go more than the 1/3. For easy Calc (Adjust as needed. 10 cents per KWH) save 250W is 2.5 cents / Hour x 12 Hours day average = 30 cents / day approx = $100 year electrical savings. Ad, bulbs, ballast and labor to figure payback.

 

[Eric H]

There are lots of studies that state that LEDs reduce labor and replacement cost. Cree has a couple on their site I believe?

I remember some days when I felt more like a light bulb replacement technician than CW operator. LED certainly freed up a significant amount of my time.

I wish someone would make a before and after comparison. Also give the light fixture they used..... plus a lux reading. Using something like this: http://amzn.to/2ckDmQu (

you can get a light meter/lux app for your phone.
My bays are already converted to LED version of the LSI Scottsdale fixture and one location has the giant "compact" fluorescent bulbs from 1000bulbs.com. I will take some pics and readings this week, if I remember....At the very least it will give someone else an idea of the what to expect of they meter their own bays before LED conversion.

BTW: my order of bulbs from Amazon has an expected delivery date of Oct7-Oct26. When i ordered it was estimated for thursday, 2 days ago

 

[cwguy.com]

According to Cree's wall pack reference design: Their design goal was 20,000lm compared to a MH 250w 24,000lm. It is a retro refit design.

Jarvis retro is 14,700lm. But that fixture uses a different glass/plastic. I believe this has to help with allowing the light to provide less lumens and appear the same. The glass it replaced is very thick.... Cree's fixture is designed the same way. You may be getting the same lux rating because the glass is removed from the design? I have not looked at anyone's lights yet. Maybe I should?

We are comparing two completely different things here. Retro fits and screw in replacements. They are not the same.

My only advice would be to spend a little more and maybe the company may stand behind their product.