Nayax to Ginsan count-down

[buckeye3847]

Hi all! Thanks for all of your help from earlier. After careful consideration reviewing the pros and cons, I ended up adding a nayax reader to a laurel accessory box by KR and paired it to a new Ginsan-402 timer for count-down mode operation. We left the old paraplate T24120 timers with the 15 coin limit in the pump room, but added the ginsan 402 timer behind the nayax unit and tied it in to the coin- and + switches so that we wouldnt be limited by the 15 coin limits for the old paraplates. We did this in phases, first installing the new Ginsan timers and then later wiring the nayax units a few weeks later. After we wired in the nayax readers, the nayax readers successfully powered on the bays following payment/ selection, however they all are limiting washes to around 10 minutes. We also were doing some testing following the nayax install and the cancel button on the ginsan was not turning off the wash, indicating the old paraplate timers were controlling the bay time. The fact that the washes are being limited to 10 minutes or less regardless of money spent on the credit card reader tells me the paraplates are the only timer being activated.

Do we think I maybe burned up all 4 Ginsan timers and they need to be swapped out? I don't think there is an active short at present because we crimped terminal connectors at each terminal and inspected all wiring installed by my electrician. It's very possible we started out with some incorrect wiring to the ginsan timer and made some corrections and accidentally jumped some terminals that burnt out the timers. I know accidentally jumping between the coin switch and the common terminal can result in coin acceptor failure, but could it also cause timer failure? We did burn out 1 or 2 24v fuses in the pump room so safe to say we probably messed up the wiring at first.

I think my next plan will be to buy 4 more Ginsan 402 timers at $70 each and just swap them out unless others have something else I missed. It's not likely these came defective since they worked for a few weeks prior. I dont think this is going to be a warranty replacement. I know I can also the pulse wire and then jump hot and coin switch to see if the bay turns on and see, but I want to make sure I bring all of the right backup materials with me if it turns out to be a badtimer. Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[Keno]

Are your paraplates setup for 24vac or 120vac? A quick search showed it can be either, user selected. I would assume 24vac for wash bays. I wouldn't have 2 timers in the same circuit. If your paraplates are 24vac, you should be able to replace with the ginsan 402 directly. We have 402 timers in the equipment room for 3 of our bays. Ginsan has good documentation and has testing/ troubleshooting in their tech sheets. Nayax in count down mode just sends pulses to the timer like a coin acceptor. You need to get that paraplate out of the circuit and troubleshoot further.

Changer decals look nice. Any reason you don't change anything higher than a $5?

 

[Dan kamsickas]

You cannot tie the coin input of two timers together. The coin input is an internal voltage on the timer and hooking two together will lead to the bay running on or not starting at all. You need to ditch the Paraplate all together.

The proper solution is to get rid of those antiquated meterboxes and upgrade to one with a display timer.

 

[buckeye3847]

Are your paraplates setup for 24vac or 120vac? A quick search showed it can be either, user selected. I would assume 24vac for wash bays. I wouldn't have 2 timers in the same circuit. If your paraplates are 24vac, you should be able to replace with the ginsan 402 directly. We have 402 timers in the equipment room for 3 of our bays. Ginsan has good documentation and has testing/ troubleshooting in their tech sheets. Nayax in count down mode just sends pulses to the timer like a coin acceptor. You need to get that paraplate out of the circuit and troubleshoot further.

Changer decals look nice. Any reason you don't change anything higher than a $5?

They are all 24VAC. Thanks for your feedback. Understood about removing the paraplate out of the circuit and making sure my Ginsan timers are operating correctly without the paraplates in the mix. I'll work on taking the paraplate out this month when possible.

Thanks for the feedback on the changer. Myself and my worker dont have much knowledge on how to update the MARs validators that are already present to support 10/20 bills. I assume they support higher denominations, but I also heard of owners who end up being the change machine for nearby businesses and end up having to buy coins to stock their bill changer. I also dont have the bandwidth to stock my bill changer with fresh coins from the bank so that's why I stuck with 1,5 bills. I've seen a few drive aways because of this, but just didnt go down this path because of my knowledge gap on what it would take to update the validators and/or update the config to allow the new bills. Its an AC2221 with older mono board in case that helps.

 

[buckeye3847]

You cannot tie the coin input of two timers together. The coin input is an internal voltage on the timer and hooking two together will lead to the bay running on or not starting at all. You need to ditch the Paraplate all together.

The proper solution is to get rid of those antiquated meterboxes and upgrade to one with a display timer.

Understood thanks! I'll pull the paraplate timer. I realize replacing the coin boxes are ideal, but I didnt have a 12k budget (between materials and labor) to completely demolish the old coin boxes. The current setup let me upgrade my setup for about $3k labor and parts included and was much more budget friendly. I can look into it more once I stablize operations.

 

[Keno]

The model of Mars validator will determine denominations it will accept. I would take 10s and 20s and see if there is actually changer abuse at your location. Changer abuse is definitely location dependent.

 

[buckeye3847]

You cannot tie the coin input of two timers together. The coin input is an internal voltage on the timer and hooking two together will lead to the bay running on or not starting at all. You need to ditch the Paraplate all together.

The proper solution is to get rid of those antiquated meterboxes and upgrade to one with a display timer.

Quick update. so we disconnected the pulse (+ and - pulse wires) to the paraplate timer in a single bay and retested the bay. There was no response from the ginsan timer from either the nayax nor the coin acceptor. We then reconnected the pulse wires back to paraplate timer to go back to original state. We then tried the same experiment in another bay with the same outcome of no response from Ginsan timer. I think this tells me either the wiring to the timer is wrong or the timer is not functioning right. Should I just order 4 new timers and replace the existing ones and repeat the experiment? I've included a video of the wiring below. suggestions welcome!


Here is a video of the wiring from the terminals to the ginsan timer

 

[Dan kamsickas]

Quick update. so we disconnected the pulse (+ and - pulse wires) to the paraplate timer in a single bay and retested the bay. There was no response from the ginsan timer from either the nayax nor the coin acceptor. We then reconnected the pulse wires back to paraplate timer to go back to original state. We then tried the same experiment in another bay with the same outcome of no response from Ginsan timer. I think this tells me either the wiring to the timer is wrong or the timer is not functioning right. Should I just order 4 new timers and replace the existing ones and repeat the experiment? I've included a video of the wiring below. suggestions welcome!

Not really sure what to tell you. We've never hooked one up to a setup that old. The GS402 is looking for a dry contact switch closure across terminals 1 and 4. If you take the wires off of 4 and short across 1 and 4 the same number of times as you have the coins to start set at and timer turns on the timer is fine.

 

[buckeye3847]

Not really sure what to tell you. We've never hooked one up to a setup that old. The GS402 is looking for a dry contact switch closure across terminals 1 and 4. If you take the wires off of 4 and short across 1 and 4 the same number of times as you have the coins to start set at and timer turns on the timer is fine.

Appreciate you responding nonetheless. I think I might have figured it out! My paraplate timer wiring diagram was goof proof since it had coin switch inputs which matched the wire terminals, but the ginsan 402 timer was not as intuitive to me. I incorrectly put one of the coin switch input wires on the terminal 2 (load or timed hot) thinking that was the appropriate spot, but the wiring diagram states that terminal 2 is actually empty and I should put the coin input wire on the 24v hot (terminal 4). I'll have to test that out fully later this week to confirm if this resolves the issue and allows the ginsan timer to properly control the bay.

I was re-reviewing the helpful Sensotron GS-41 tech sheets and timer hookup diagrams found there that helped me figure out the mistake.

While I now know this is the correct wiring, I still dont understand how the timer is activating the bay equipment, if 24v is always hot and the terminal 1/coin pulse wire is where it receives the pulse inputs. I thought it might use the timed load function, but looks like not.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

I still dont understand how the timer is activating the bay equipment

When the timer sees enough coin inputs, it turns on and sends 24VAC hot out terminal 2 to your rotary switch.

 

[buckeye3847]

When the timer sees enough coin inputs, it turns on and sends 24VAC hot out terminal 2 to your rotary switch.

Thanks! but still confused because my current original setup with the paraplate timer doesnt have a timed load line connecting to the rotary switch and its located in the pump room above each HP pump (and yet it still can power on the bay equipment using just the 2 coin pulse wires). My ginsan timer is now at the coinbox, but I only have the two coin pulse wires connected (same ones connected to the paraplate below). I have not wired terminal 2 to the rotary switch.

There seems to be a incompatibility between how the coin acceptor inputs tie into the coin switch terminals and work with the paraplate, but seem to need to be moved off the coin switch terminal and onto the 24v hot (terminal 1) of the timer in order to work properly with the ginsan timer.

I just dont know how to rearrange them. I could add a wire between terminal 2 and my rotary switch, remove the paraplate and call it a day. It just seems like there is an easier option i'm missing.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

Thanks! but still confused because my current original setup with the paraplate timer

Doesn't matter. You can either use the GS402 to run the bay or the Paraplate. Not both. You cannot have two timers tied together.

 

[buckeye3847]

Doesn't matter. You can either use the GS402 to run the bay or the Paraplate. Not both. You cannot have two timers tied together.

This I agree on, but my predicament is that when I remove the paraplate timer from the equation, I am unable to get the ginsan timer to activate the bay, indicating I must have wired it wrong. The paraplate timer could activate the bay using the two coin switch wires, and when I try to do hook those same 2 wires to the ginsan timer (1 to the coin switch terminal 4 and the other to terminal 2), I'm unsuccessful. Just cant figure out why.

 

[cantbreak80]

Thanks! but still confused because my current original setup with the paraplate timer doesnt have a timed load line connecting to the rotary switch and its located in the pump room above each HP pump (and yet it still can power on the bay equipment using just the 2 coin pulse wires).

Maybe the Paraplate timer’s output is energizing the coil of an isolation relay?
With the timer located in the equipment room, the potential for significant voltage drop to the coin box exists. To eliminate this issue, some installations will incorporate a relay between the timer and the rotary switch’s common terminals...essentially providing full transformer voltage to the switch.

Just a thought.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

This I agree on, but my predicament is that when I remove the paraplate timer from the equation, I am unable to get the ginsan timer to activate the bay, indicating I must have wired it wrong. The paraplate timer could activate the bay using the two coin switch wires, and when I try to do hook those same 2 wires to the ginsan timer (1 to the coin switch terminal 4 and the other to terminal 2), I'm unsuccessful. Just cant figure out why.

The #2 output of the GS402 should be wired to the common terminal of the rotary switch. It sounds like it's not.

 

[STXCW]

Find someone with a plasma cutter and cut a hole into that door and add an LED6 timer with a bracket and be done. Then you can be setup to count up. We have done it with a cutoff wheel as well but need to be careful.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

Find someone with a plasma cutter and cut a hole into that door and add an LED6 timer with a bracket and be done. Then you can be setup to count up. We have done it with a cutoff wheel as well but need to be careful.

Exactly. Anything else is a half measure. Do it right once, it's cheaper in the long run. If you can't afford to do all bays at once, do as many as you can afford and use the added revenue to do the rest as you go. Not doing count up with credit card is leaving A LOT of money on the table.

 

[buckeye3847]

Exactly. Anything else is a half measure. Do it right once, it's cheaper in the long run. If you can't afford to do all bays at once, do as many as you can afford and use the added revenue to do the rest as you go. Not doing count up with credit card is leaving A LOT of money on the table.

Thanks everyone so much for laying out the options! I now know what I need to upgrade and do count-up or at a minimum, fix the wiring and connect timed hot to rotary switch common while I plan/implement the upgrades.

 

[Keno]

Nayax can do count up on its own, it doesn't matter what timer is used for the cash/coin side. I have Nayax running in count-up mode with Ginsan GS402 timers. Unlike Cryptopay, Nayax doesn't have to rely on the timer at all, it has its own timer built-in

 

[Keno]

Thanks! but still confused because my current original setup with the paraplate timer doesnt have a timed load line connecting to the rotary switch and its located in the pump room above each HP pump (and yet it still can power on the bay equipment using just the 2 coin pulse wires). My ginsan timer is now at the coinbox, but I only have the two coin pulse wires connected (same ones connected to the paraplate below). I have not wired terminal 2 to the rotary switch.

There seems to be a incompatibility between how the coin acceptor inputs tie into the coin switch terminals and work with the paraplate, but seem to need to be moved off the coin switch terminal and onto the 24v hot (terminal 1) of the timer in order to work properly with the ginsan timer.

I just dont know how to rearrange them. I could add a wire between terminal 2 and my rotary switch, remove the paraplate and call it a day. It just seems like there is an easier option i'm missing.

View attachment 9976

Where does the red wire coming out of your paraplate in this picture go? I am not familiar with paraplate, but that seems it maybe your timed hot. If it is, that should work if connected to timed hot #2 on Ginsan.