Need help with water problem

[MEP001]

A single tank does not use or waste salt compared to a twin tank. Period.

Then you will always have hard water before it regenerates. That's how it has to work unless you oversize the softener and regenerate it before it's giving hard water. So with a single tank, you either ALWAYS have to oversize, or you ALWAYS have to let it run hard, or you ALWAYS have to regenerate early. The only exception would be if you're softening only the RO system, in which case you could regenerate the softener at the proper capacity as needed and use a pretreatment interlock to stop the RO system from running.

...when a twin tank switches over to the other one it uses softened water to regen. It gets that from the tank in use. So if you need a 60 gpm flow, you need around a 80 gpm tank to supply the wash and regen the other tank.

Single head twin tank softeners do use water from one tank to regenerate the other side, but when you're talking numbers anywhere near 60 GPM you have to have separate softeners linked with a common meter, and those don't use soft water from one tank to regenerate the other.

 

[KleanRide]

And the vast majorities of city water supplies do just fine for rinsing.

Not San Antonio. When my softener went down I bypassed it to see if I could keep the wash open while it was being rebuilt. When the city water cycled through my system I had zero soap show and the rinse water that dried on my car looked like I had driven through a dust storm.

 

[MEP001]

Not San Antonio. When my softener went down I bypassed it to see if I could keep the wash open while it was being rebuilt. When the city water cycled through my system I had zero soap show and the rinse water that dried on my car looked like I had driven through a dust storm.

And San Antonio has better water quality than most in Texas. One guy told me his was 400 grains. The TDS was also so bad he ended up having to run everything on RO.

 

[OurTown]

Something is strange here. I've rebedded a fair number of softeners and never had one cost me over $500 for resin and gravel.

Where did you get materials that cheap? It looks like our twin resin tank system will require 20 cubit feet of resin and 500 lbs of gravel.

 

[OurTown]

And San Antonio has better water quality than most in Texas. One guy told me his was 400 grains. The TDS was also so bad he ended up having to run everything on RO.

400? That is nuts. Did he say he was able to get it soft?

 

[wendy's wash]

Update. Water softener was stopped up. Used bypass. Company coming out to fix next week. Will clean both 5' tanks, RO tank and replace valve. $2,200.00 Thanks for all the help.

 

[MEP001]

Why are they replacing the valve and the RO tank? Sounds like they're padding the bill.

 

[mac]

Where did you get materials that cheap? It looks like our twin resin tank system will require 20 cubit feet of resin and 500 lbs of gravel.

I have a couple of manufacturers close by me. Can’t remember the exact cost but I think it was about $30 for one cubic foot. There is simply no way a 5 foot tank would need that much gravel and resin. Maybe one foot of gravel and 5 or 6 feet of resin per tank. And sure wish I was as smart as me on this. He’s an expert you know.

 

[OurTown]

I have a couple of manufacturers close by me. Can’t remember the exact cost but I think it was about $30 for one cubic foot. There is simply no way a 5 foot tank would need that much gravel and resin. Maybe one foot of gravel and 5 or 6 feet of resin per tank. And sure wish I was as smart as me on this. He’s an expert you know.

2' diameter and 6' tall times two tanks. I was just going by what it is supposed to with.

 

[MEP001]

There is simply no way a 5 foot tank would need that much gravel and resin. Maybe one foot of gravel and 5 or 6 feet of resin per tank.

2' diameter and 6' tall times two tanks.

Total volume of 19 cu. ft. per tank, you only fill 2/3rds capacity, subtract about a cu. ft. for the gravel, that's 12 cu. ft., times two tanks, times $30 per, that's $720. With tanks that size, I don't replace the gravel with tanks that size, I just put a hose in the riser tube keeping it filled with water and siphon the resin into a garbage can. It's tedious but very easy to get all the resin without even disturbing the gravel bed. Typically tanks that size have a very coarse gravel at the very bottom with finer filter gravel on top to allow more water into the riser tube.

And sure wish I was as smart as [MEP] on this. He’s an expert you know.

I am an expert, with 38 years of experience in this industry.

 

[Randy]

How often do these Water softeners need to be rebuilt, on average? I have a friend who hasn't touched his system in 22 years. He has 2 - 5' tanks and valves on top of the tanks aren't working properly, he hasn't used any salt in over 6 months.

 

[cantbreak80]

2' diameter and 6' tall times two tanks. I was just going by what it is supposed to with.

24”x72” mineral tanks ... 10.6 cu ft of resin each ... 318,000 grain capacity each. Those are huge softeners for a self serve wash. With 15% reserve capacity, 10 gpg hardness and minimum salting, each tank can treat over 26,000 gallons. Unless the wash uses 2,000 gpd, I’d be concerned about hardness breakthrough.

 

[MEP001]

How often do these Water softeners need to be rebuilt, on average? I have a friend who hasn't touched his system in 22 years.

Chlorine seems to be the big killer of resin. When I worked for a distributor we had a customer for whom we replaced his resin every two years. It would just turn to powder and flow down the drain with the backwash cycle. The resin in mine is 19 years old and is perfectly fine, softens completely to capacity and has no restriction to flow.

 

[cantbreak80]

In addition to chlorine, (which breaks down the divinylbenzine glue that holds resin beads together) oversalting and excessive fast flushing will cause the resin to swell and crack...down the drain they go!
Surprisingly, at least to me, was the site where heavy water hammer conditions went unresolved. That resin lasted about 6 months!

Randy, once the valves and controllers are repaired/replaced, I would re-bed a 22 year old softener...and make sure the control cycles are correctly set.

 

[Randy]

Chlorine seems to be the big killer of resin. When I worked for a distributor we had a customer for whom we replaced his resin every two years. It would just turn to powder and flow down the drain with the backwash cycle. The resin in mine is 19 years old and is perfectly fine, softens completely to capacity and has no restriction to flow.

Thanks MEP. He's got a big charcoal filter in front of the resin tanks. I don't think he's ever checked the water quality to see if his system is making good water. Up here in the Pacific Northwest most of our water is good enough that we don't need to have water softeners. The last time I checked my water it was 3 grains.

 

[OurTown]

24”x72” mineral tanks ... 10.6 cu ft of resin each ... 318,000 grain capacity each. Those are huge softeners for a self serve wash. With 15% reserve capacity, 10 gpg hardness and minimum salting, each tank can treat over 26,000 gallons. Unless the wash uses 2,000 gpd, I’d be concerned about hardness breakthrough.

I'm not sure why Super Wash installed such a large unit. I assumed it was for flow rate with the two touchless autos running. The last time I checked our harness coming in it was 18 grains. I have it set to regen after 12,000 gallons because on one of the tanks anything more and it would not soften towards the end. They need redone because the pressure drops a lot when there is high demand. What is hardness breakthrough?

 

[MEP001]

I think he means exceeding the flow of the media, since despite the flow capacity of the valve you can only soften so much flow through the resin before some of the water comes through not fully softened.

 

[cantbreak80]

As water flows through the resin in a funnel shape...sort of like a tornado. The middle depletes faster than the sides. Low flow rates increase the depletion sooner than higher rates.
Many modern electronic controllers provide a maximum days between regen setting to prevent breakthrough or hardness leakage.

2 touchless autos and 18 grain water explains the size of those softeners. I would likely set the system to no more than 15,000 gallons per tank...with max days between regen at 14.

 

[mjwalsh]

I wonder if the "total number of gallons of the continuous chlorinated water flowing" is the main killer of the resin. The reason I ask is because I am pretty sure my "Fleck Twin Softener Tanks ... One Brine Tank" setup is regenerating much more often than it needs to be.

 

[cantbreak80]

mjwalsh,
The Fleck controller is not affected by the condition of the resin...but, you probably already know that.
The controller uses timed sequences for each regeneration cycle.
Typically:
10 minutes backwash
60 minutes brine draw and flush
?? minutes brine refill (Brine refill time is a calculation based upon the size of the brine tank, the salt dosage desired, and the flow rate of the brine line flow control.) IMHO...Most installers do not take the time to calculate and set this value resulting in excessive brining.

For proper set up you need to know:
Raw water hardness
Cu Ft of resin in each tank

If the softener is cycling too frequently there's likely an error in the settings...
Total capacity
Reserve percentage
Hardness