Need to be talked down...Newbie growing pains...LW4000

[MDrost1]

Hello,

I bought a wash in west Michigan in April 2014. 5 SS and 1 IBA. Since then I have put what I feel is a lot of money into it. Certain pieces of equipment were in dire neglect. Specifically the LW 4000(no doors, VT).

I have:
Replaced the Bridge with a New Stainless Bridge from PDQ
New Festoon
Replaced X30 Prox cable
New VT Eyes
New Spray Arch
LaserNet System
New LaserMinder System

Everytime there is an issue I address it and have it "fixed" promptly. My mindset is that I'd like everything working properly so I can develop customer confidence and acquire repeat customers.

Recently my LW has been giving me hassles. I understand this is the nature of the beast. It is really trying on me right now and I'd like to see how other people manage this. Here are a few question...Thanks in advance!

1) How many errors do you receive from your IBA in a day? week?
2) Is it possible to run a IBA for a week without receive an error or having a malfunction?
3) Is the LW4000 really this inconsistent? Since last Thursday I have received an error everyday. 1 sometimes 2-3.
4) How do you guys deal with this sort of thing without getting ulcers?

I appreciate your advice. I am having a hard time grasping the business and the general mindset of a car wash owner. Do I need to detach more?

Thank you!!!!

Mike D.

 

[Waxman]

1. Are you on site daily? If not, I would be on site as much as time allows in order to watch the LW 4000 operate.

2. First thing I look for is customer error. On my IBA, it's common for customers to be in the wrong spot to start a wash.

3. begin a troubleshooting / repairs/ maintenance log. document problems, what you did to fix it and whether the fix worked. this helps when you fix a problem then wash fine for a time and then get the same or similar problem; you can simply look it up in your log for help in fixing the problem.

4. the car wash business is tough. if you are in a cold climate and have no doors, i would add doors. keeping the bay and the equipment above freezing when it operates will help alot.

5. when a problem comes up, put the traffic cone out, shut down the bay. get a coffee. think about what went wrong. look at your troubleshooting log. look at the bay equipment, plc, error msg., etc. don't run around changing parts and freaking out.

6. there are thousands of these LW 4000's in service so plenty of guys know how to fix them. many are right here on acf so be happy you found the forum.

7. there is a 2 year or so learning curve in car washing. in a few years you will be a changed person who can troubleshoot, diagnose and repair the equipment. it just takes experience and time.

 

[Waxman]

And to answer your questions: yes, IBA's can be made to run consistently. errors happen but much less frequently than when i was new at this. you learn preventative maintenance, which spare parts to inventory, who to call for help, etc.

 

[Greg Pack]

no experience with laser but I can tell you is at times frustrating. Even after 22 years I am still occasionally stumped and pull my hair out. A machine that has undergone a lot of neglect will slowly get more reliable as problems are identified and repaired correctly, but ultimately cost you more down time and frustration.

You may want to find a trusted, experienced PDQ tech to come in and look the machine over. Let him perform some aggressive PM and replace what he thinks needs to be replaced that is going to a problem in the near future. Just like on our car, we don't necessarily want to wait for something to break before it is fixed. Financially, it can be a little painful, but I think it is probably a good idea. As a matter of fact, I'm thinking about letting the local tech do that for me. I could do the repairs myself but I know I'm not going to. I tend to let things slide until it breaks and forces me to fix it- Usually at 8pm on a Friday night.

Good Luck, and stay with it. As they say- "this too shall pass"

 

[Randy]

We have 2 PDQ 4000's and very seldom do we have problems or errors, I'm not saying we don't just that they are few and far between. What errors are you getting?

 

[robert roman]

“I am having a hard time grasping the business and the general mindset of a car wash owner. Do I need to detach more?”

One way to solve a paradox is don’t do more of what isn’t working. So, in applying this notion, the solution would be to do the opposite or become more attached.

For example, a constraint is anything that limits a business from achieving its goal.

You said the goal is “I'd like everything working properly so I can develop customer confidence and acquire repeat customers.”

Here, the physical constraint is inconsistency as in too many machine error codes and malfunctions.

One way to break a constraint is to exploit it. You tried to do this by replacing certain pieces of equipment that were in dire neglect. It didn’t work.

The principal reason is the average life expectancy of a well maintained in-bay is about ten years and this includes a minor overhaul at around five years.

4000 was retired in 2007 or eight years ago.

It’s hard to exploit a system that is not made anymore. So, I suspect you have reached the point where replacement may make more sense than repair.

 

[MDrost1]

Waxman, I am on site 4-5 times. I have a guy helping who is also on site 2-3. A vet of the business. We keep a log and his method of troubleshooting is close to yours. Thank you for the advice. I will stick with it.

I do have Woltco come out regularly. I do not hesitate to make sure they know I want the thing fixed and want it running like it should. No bandaids.

Thank you to all for your great advice. I will take it to heart. When I am not typing on an iPad I will shoot the errors out. Aside from the impact sw errors, I get FR eye issues, and arch rotate fails. Woltco has done everything they can to address these issues. Every once and a while they still happen.
Thank You!!!!

 

[BBE]

“I am having a hard time grasping the business and the general mindset of a car wash owner. Do I need to detach more?”

One way to solve a paradox is don’t do more of what isn’t working. So, in applying this notion, the solution would be to do the opposite or become more attached.

For example, a constraint is anything that limits a business from achieving its goal.

You said the goal is “I'd like everything working properly so I can develop customer confidence and acquire repeat customers.”

Here, the physical constraint is inconsistency as in too many machine error codes and malfunctions.

One way to break a constraint is to exploit it. You tried to do this by replacing certain pieces of equipment that were in dire neglect. It didn’t work.

The principal reason is the average life expectancy of a well maintained in-bay is about ten years and this includes a minor overhaul at around five years.

4000 was retired in 2007 or eight years ago.

It’s hard to exploit a system that is not made anymore. So, I suspect you have reached the point where replacement may make more sense than repair.

I think his 4000 should still have plenty of life left in it. There are plenty of 4000's out there still running like champs.

As for your errors, if you had woltco come check it out, I'm sure they looked at and did all of the basic things. For arch rotate fails you want to inspect all 3 prox switches on your cam, make sure all 3 switches and cables are good, the cam itself is in good shape and not rusted, the prox switches are adjusted properly (should be about a credit card width distance away from cam) and last the sheer pin in the arch. If it is getting weak it will cause the arch to wobble more than it should when it rotates and you can start seeing arch rotate fail errors.

Impact sw problems, make sure that the metal cylinder that slides up into the impact prox switch when the arch hits something is not stuck and sliding freely. Sometimes when it happens legitimately once, it will have a tendency to not slide all the way back down into place. Spray some wd40 or white lithium grease on it if need be.

 

[soapy]

If you do not have cameras yet I would get some. That way you can watch what is actually happening and when it happens during the wash. That will give you a good indication of what you should be looking to fix. You should be able to go weeks between error codes. When problems do happen they seem to happen in bunches. Keep track of all the error codes in a book and when you find the fix for it write the fix in your book. That way you can go back and reference the problem and the fix easier. Use this forum often as LW 4000 users on here are many and most will jump into to help you with problems and fixes and not tell you to junk it out.

 

[robert roman]

“There are plenty of 4000's out there still running like champs.”

Certainly there are. There are even a few left in my area but these are “well maintained” machines like I mentioned.

“Dire neglect” and the long list of equipment replaced sure does not sound like well maintained to me.

Why did PDQ retire 4000?

It wasn't because the machine could no longer do the job. The reason was the market demanded more than what the 4000 could deliver.

If it still works for you, great.

If this were car racing, the 4000 would be a stock car and 360 and G-5 are Indy cars.

There is no escaping 4000 technology and marketing capabilities have been eclipsed.

 

[MDrost1]

Thank you all for your help. I truly appreciate your time and concern.

My hope is to have the wash paid off, before I start investing heavily into new equipment. The LW did wash a good amount of cars yesterday with no issues. I am close to a pay off, then I might consider new equipment. I am sure the learning curve would be greater on a a new piece of equipment, and the gentleman that is mentoring me, knows the LW better than he would know a new piece of equipment. I learn a little bit each day and try to remain patient. The gent assisting me says things are better than they have ever been. He has been there for 15 years, and was a vet in the corporate CW industry for 38 years. That is good. Slow increments upward. I can see that it is easy to get discouraged, but having assistance from pros like Waxman, Robert, Soapy, Randy, BBE and cfcw make the whole thing a little bit more manageable. Thank you!

Some good news. I did have a freelance tech out the other day to check out the errors I have been getting. The manifold weldement and compression bumper on the spray arch were very old and offering "a lot of slop". One of the T-bars was not level creating a small window for the front eye. He said the spray arch could very well be covering the eye intermittently. We replaced both parts. Leveled the Tbar, and checked the front eyes all tests to spec. The tolerances are much tighter to the eye. I am hopeful that this has solved my "Arch Rotate" and FR Eye issues.

Lessons learned:
1) Don't be afraid to ask for help.
2) Be patient...2 year learning curve
3) Call a tech if you are in over your head
4) Try to learn a bit every day about the equipment
5) Be present at the wash whenever possible
6) Keep a repair log
7) Preventative maintenance! Tire pressure, grease etc.
8) Don't band aid problems...Fix them or replace them

Thank you gentleman! Have a wonderful weekend. I appreciate your advice immensely.

Mike D

 

[PEI]

“There is no escaping 4000 technology and marketing capabilities have been eclipsed.

I will grant you that the marketing has been eclipsed by the newer inverted L's, but the 4000's technology is still sound if you are trying to clean with a touchless wash. The newer machines offer slight improvements in speed, most of which can be gained by the LW4000 through pods and production arches as well. That extra speed comes at a cost to cleaning however. Plus, there are very few sites that actually can use the extra 2 to 5 cars an hour that the newer machines are capable of washing.

 

[robert roman]

I should be an equipment sales person because I disagree with PEI.

When average time to wash is five minutes, two to five extra cars an hour is a 17 percent to 42 percent increase in hourly capacity.

In sports, this would be considered huge. Of course, this isn’t NASCAR its income producing property.

So, what is likely to make more money, a new G-5 or an old 4000?

 

[JustClean]

If cars are lined up maybe the newer machine. If not - I'd prefer a paid-off old workhorse

 

[I.B. Washincars]

two to five extra cars an hour is a 17 percent to 42 percent increase in hourly capacity.

Which only means something if you are running at capacity.

 

[wash4me]

“I am having a hard time grasping the business and the general mindset of a car wash owner. Do I need to detach more?”

One way to solve a paradox is don’t do more of what isn’t working. So, in applying this notion, the solution would be to do the opposite or become more attached.

For example, a constraint is anything that limits a business from achieving its goal.

You said the goal is “I'd like everything working properly so I can develop customer confidence and acquire repeat customers.”

Here, the physical constraint is inconsistency as in too many machine error codes and malfunctions.

One way to break a constraint is to exploit it. You tried to do this by replacing certain pieces of equipment that were in dire neglect. It didn’t work.

The principal reason is the average life expectancy of a well maintained in-bay is about ten years and this includes a minor overhaul at around five years.

4000 was retired in 2007 or eight years ago.

It’s hard to exploit a system that is not made anymore. So, I suspect you have reached the point where replacement may make more sense than repair.

I'm sure it was pretty hard for pdq to make money selling the 4000 when the high velocity was available with more features and better support.

 

[robert roman]

“I'm sure it was pretty hard for pdq to make money selling the 4000 when the high velocity was available with more features and better support.”

Yes, to some degree, but you have to consider what was going on with the market back then. 4000 was introduced in 1987 at beginning of the boom period for carwash, the 1990’s.

During 1990’s, demand drivers for carwash were strong and growth in number of carwash establishments and industry wash revenues occurred within all categories especially self-serve and carwash at gasoline sites.

In-bay unit sales predominately touch-less because gas sites are unattended and self-serve mostly absentee owners.

Back then, I know some PDQ dealers that sold 4000 to Big Oil companies in batches of ten. Almost 1/3rd of new self-serves were going in with an in-bay. Dealers were making good money even through recession of early 2000’s.

In 2005, estimated equipment spending was over $300 million for in-bay and $102 million for wands. Some people estimated there were roughly 45 individual suppliers of in-bay systems then but Ryko dominated market share at gas sites.

The poop hit the fan in 2006/2007 when oil and gasoline prices spiked to sustained high levels. Add in collapse of mortgage industry and recession.

B 2009, equipment spending on wands dropped to $8.0 million and in-bay dropped to $95 million.

Also, PDQ had a lot of R & D tied up into G-5 development (i.e. virtual treadle, etc.) when things were good in the industry then the bottom began to fall out.

If you want to win a fight, you don’t go to into a gun battle with a knife.

So, 4000 was put out to pasture.

 

[rph9168]

Today's in-bay market is mostly retro fits with a movement towards friction. There are very few new builds with established washes working to keep what they have running until they have no choice but to buy new. During the boom most oil companies paid little attention to maintenance and basically regarded automatics as disposal that they would replace every 5 or six years. Now many oil company sites simply close down when the machine gives out. Even with very attractive offers c-stores and oil companies the number of sites with washes is declining.

 

[soapy]

On a good note for all car washes I read in the Wall Street Journal that it is expected that oil will stay below $65 a barell for the next 5 years.

 

[rph9168]

Times like these have a tendency to weed out the bad operators which makes it better for those that continue on.