Poll: Biden vs. Trump's era

[mjwalsh]

It’s like voting in FL where you don’t even have to be a citizen.

I heard the current corrupt as hell federal admin is trying to stop LAWFULLY AUTHORIZED POLL WATCHERS from even politely asking if the person is a citizen ... like as if that is a form of election harassment.

 

[mac]

It’s like one flew over the cuckoos nest.

 

[Roz]

Hello Ron. From reading your text you seem like an intelligent person, however you have been ill informed. Solar and wind will never provide the majority of our power. The problem is with storage. Battery technology just ain’t there yet. Something that puzzles me is our shopfront natural gas. I’ve read we have a 500 year supply of it. So why mess with solar? We are on the verge of finally getting nuclear practical. Solar and wind are just the latest examples of making the tree huggers happy.

Visit Iceland. The country gets a significant portion of their heat and energy from geo thermal power such that they heat some of the sidewalks in the main downtown shopping area so snow does not accumulate. 85% of the homes there are heated & cooled by geo thermal. You can take a tour of the facility which is fascinating. The rest of the country is interesting and fun to visit too. Geo thermal has no limits and homes on postage stamp lots can use geo for heating & cooling as you are drilling vertically. Geo thermal is clean energy, plentiful, and very cost effective after the drilling is completed plus you have zero maintenance costs for the air handlers.

Your point about energy storage is valid and important. While we are almost off the grid in terms of energy expense with our geo and solar systems the model breaks down if there is a power outage since we do not have power storage units - that is why we have a home generator that runs on propane (rarely gets used other than the weekly testing). The last big hurdle that needs to be improved is energy storage so we can bank the energy we generate for later usage instead of simply reversing our electric meter (net metering). I see the improvements in the electric car ranges so I am optimistic that a good storage solution is within the next 5 years. Nuclear is still an interesting energy source that gets an undeserved bad rap. While it is safe 99% of the time its the 1% due to natural disaster or war or some other unforeseen issue that worries people.

I wonder if we look at the cost to build a power plant (of any fuel type) and the associated annual costs to maintain the transmission lines plus the annual legal costs when some accidental downed line starts a massive fire if we could drill geo thermal lines for most of the buildings (residential and commercial) that are serviced by the power plant. I do not know the answer but it would be interesting to see the data or numbers if they exist.

 

[MEP001]

Geo thermal has no limits

It has several big ones.
You have to move to an area where the Earth's crust is thin enough to tap into it.
You can't generate electricity with it.
There's enough usable area to heat 17% of all people's homes.

 

[Roz]

It has several big ones.
You have to move to an area where the Earth's crust is thin enough to tap into it.
You can't generate electricity with it.
There's enough usable area to heat 17% of all people's homes.

Elevation above sea level is a factor. Geo is not a solution for all places but look at all the big cities at or near sea level. Denver is a pass but there are plenty of cities such that we could reduce the strain on the current old transmission infrastructure.

Here is an idea for some entrepreneurs, make cost effective systems for car washes. In winter when temps in the 30s we can burn through $1000 of propane in less than two weeks (at last years prices). If you have a geo system you could leave running all year long and reduce your utility costs significantly. Warm floors, lower cost to make hot water when temps are below 59 deg outside. Not a perfect solution for all but can move the needle in the right direction for many.

I have no vested or financial interest in geo thermal being successful, just sharing my experience with the systems.

 

[soapy]

I live next to Yellowstone where hot water boils out of the ground all the time. It is around 6000 feet of elevation I thought, but I guess it is really at sea level. Who knew?

 

[mac]

Visit Iceland. The country gets a significant portion of their heat and energy from geo thermal power such that they heat some of the sidewalks in the main downtown shopping area so snow does not accumulate. 85% of the homes there are heated & cooled by geo thermal. You can take a tour of the facility which is fascinating. The rest of the country is interesting and fun to visit too. Geo thermal has no limits and homes on postage stamp lots can use geo for heating & cooling as you are drilling vertically. Geo thermal is clean energy, plentiful, and very cost effective after the drilling is completed plus you have zero maintenance costs for the air handlers.

Your point about energy storage is valid and important. While we are almost off the grid in terms of energy expense with our geo and solar systems the model breaks down if there is a power outage since we do not have power storage units - that is why we have a home generator that runs on propane (rarely gets used other than the weekly testing). The last big hurdle that needs to be improved is energy storage so we can bank the energy we generate for later usage instead of simply reversing our electric meter (net metering). I see the improvements in the electric car ranges so I am optimistic that a good storage solution is within the next 5 years. Nuclear is still an interesting energy source that gets an undeserved bad rap. While it is safe 99% of the time its the 1% due to natural disaster or war or some other unforeseen issue that worries people.

I wonder if we look at the cost to build a power plant (of any fuel type) and the associated annual costs to maintain the transmission lines plus the annual legal costs when some accidental downed line starts a massive fire if we could drill geo thermal lines for most of the buildings (residential and commercial) that are serviced by the power plant. I do not know the answer but it would be interesting to see the data or numbers if they exist.

Visit Iceland?! And why no comment on my natural gas observation?

 

[OurTown]

I love the concept of geothermal but the install cost just doesn't make sense. My parents had a retrofit install at their house and it was something like $35,000 and that was 8 years ago. Another person that I know had a system put in a smaller house and was still over $30k. They had trouble with it within the first few years. IIRC it had a pump go out and a circuit board go bad. Geothermal has been around for many years but hasn't really caught on probably for the reasons I stated. At our house we have a dual fuel system that is a forced air heat pump/propane furnace. The heat pump works until it gets down to 24F outside and then shuts it down and the propane furnace kicks in. I could probably set the outside stat lower if our house was better insulated. If you have central air and need to replace both outdoor unit and furnace I don't think it's a big cost increase to add a heat pump. It has saved us many thousands in propane over the years.

 

[Roz]

Yes the cost is the issue holding back geo thermal adoption. If I recall back 10 years ago when we installed it the cost was $40-$50k for two 3 ton systems. Our two Freon AC units were failing and the cost to replace them was about $20k. The cost to find the leaks in the current systems could not be calculated as it was looking for a needle in a haystack. The government gave us a 50% tax credit for the geo thermal systems which made them competitive with two Carrier systems. Without the government nudge we probably would have taken the less expensive route.

 

[Roz]

Visit Iceland?! And why no comment on my natural gas observation?

Natural gas is probably a more efficient and better heating approach than oil or electric for sure. It still has a lot of costs to extract the gas and to get it to where it is needed. Very expensive to put natural pipe lines to all homes.

Long term geo thermal is better. Solar is a mixed bag in that the panels do not last forever and start to decrease in productivity with time. Plus you need to have a lot of space facing in the right direction to the sun to optimize production. I suspect that the technology will improve as they perfect solar roof shingles which is the way to go for solar.

 

[OurTown]

Natural gas is probably a more efficient and better heating approach than oil or electric for sure. It still has a lot of costs to extract the gas and to get it to where it is needed. Very expensive to put natural pipe lines to all homes.

Long term geo thermal is better. Solar is a mixed bag in that the panels do not last forever and start to decrease in productivity with time. Plus you need to have a lot of space facing in the right direction to the sun to optimize production. I suspect that the technology will improve as they perfect solar roof shingles which is the way to go for solar.

Another issue with solar is how much the sun is shining. When you think of cloudy areas you think of the Pacific Northwest but Ohio is right on its tail at over 50% of the days having heavy cloud cover. Well what do you know....its cloudy outside here right now. My Grandpa had a solar panel manufacturing and installation company back in the mid 80s here in the Dayton Ohio area. They were panels that had propylene glycol in them that circulated from the roof panel to a coil in the furnace. IIRC they reduced natural gas usage by about 40%. Maybe way ahead of its time because they never caught on and went out of business after 3 or 4 years.

 

[mac]

Super insulating is still the way to go. No moving parts and virtually no maintenance.

 

[New Washdog]

It has several big ones.
You have to move to an area where the Earth's crust is thin enough to tap into it.
You can't generate electricity with it.
There's enough usable area to heat 17% of all people's homes.

MEP001 I don't believe you have all the facts about geothermal heating straight.

I live in Vermont and there are several homes that use geothermal to heat and cool them. I learned a little about geothermal heating over twenty five years ago and there are primarily two types, open loop and closed loop. From my understanding, essentially the water is used similarly to the refrigerant in a refrigerator and is circulated through a compressor much like a refrigerator. The ions in the water are separated into two groups cold and hot and diverted accordingly. Ever noticed how your fridge is cold on the inside but warm at the coils? The same thing is done with geothermal heating.

Geothermal is even used in Canada, I know because I invested in a Toronto based company (Waterfurnace) 25 years ago. Unfortunatly I had to sell out after a couple of years but I did double my money! I just checked and they are still in business, I'll have to see what the value would be if i didnt have to sell!

 

[New Washdog]

I love the concept of geothermal but the install cost just doesn't make sense. My parents had a retrofit install at their house and it was something like $35,000 and that was 8 years ago. Another person that I know had a system put in a smaller house and was still over $30k. They had trouble with it within the first few years. IIRC it had a pump go out and a circuit board go bad. Geothermal has been around for many years but hasn't really caught on probably for the reasons I stated. At our house we have a dual fuel system that is a forced air heat pump/propane furnace. The heat pump works until it gets down to 24F outside and then shuts it down and the propane furnace kicks in. I could probably set the outside stat lower if our house was better insulated. If you have central air and need to replace both outdoor unit and furnace I don't think it's a big cost increase to add a heat pump. It has saved us many thousands in propane over the years.

I believe the issues may have been installer or retrofit related. The systems are pretty bulletproof. And $35,000 is small money when you factor in costs of a traditional system and fuel prices over a ten year period. I believe the reason it hasn't caught on is upfront cost and its usually the fuel dealers who install the heating units. Why install something that doesn't ensure reoccurring revenue? And the independent heating technicians are usually ones that started for a fuel dealer and broke off to do their own thing, so they continue doing what they know.

 

[MEP001]

I live in Vermont and there are several homes that use geothermal to heat and cool them.

I was referring to using the geothermal heat that's naturally just under the ground as free, passive heat like they do in Iceland. The geothermal we use in the US isn't the same, it's just digging down far enough where the earth is a relatively constant temperature, 50-60° F, which is used to both cool and heat a house or building by running a loop full of liquid to transfer heat or cool out into the loop field via what is basically an AC/heat pump system.

I believe the reason it hasn't caught on is upfront cost and its usually the fuel dealers who install the heating units.

Another reason would be that you need a lot of land, at least an acre, for one house. It can't be done for apartments, in downtown areas, or neighborhoods where you can stand between two houses and reach out to touch them both.

 

[Roz]

I was referring to using the geothermal heat that's naturally just under the ground as free, passive heat like they do in Iceland. The geothermal we use in the US isn't the same, it's just digging down far enough where the earth is a relatively constant temperature, 50-60° F, which is used to both cool and heat a house or building by running a loop full of liquid to transfer heat or cool out into the loop field via what is basically an AC/heat pump system.

Another reason would be that you need a lot of land, at least an acre, for one house. It can't be done for apartments, in downtown areas, or neighborhoods where you can stand between two houses and reach out to touch them both.

Our 4x 300’ deep holes in the ground take up little area. Six weeks after the first drill hit the dirt you would not know that we had holes in our yard for geo. I did have alittle fun playing with our neighbors telling them that we were drilling for oil.

I was told at the time by the installer that they were installing at town homes situated on less than 0.1 acre. The largest part of the cost is the drilling that’s why incentive$ are necessary to entice the switch.

 

[Roz]

Clearly Solar is not for all areas of the country (today) but as the tech moves towards becoming a roof shingle the issue will disappear.

 

[MEP001]

I didn't know they could sink them vertically. That certainly makes a difference.

 

[charliewash59]

I prefer a business person over a career politician…

Our society must have law and order or we will be forced to impose our own, and society as we know it will crater further…

I believe that we must have secure borders…

I believe we must be energy independent…

I believe that the pendulum always swings to far in either direction, and we must first stop the hemorrhaging, and get back to a more central political agenda, for society’s sake!

9 days till the mid term elections… it’s gonna be interesting… Grab your popcorn, and hold on tight!

 

[OurTown]

its usually the fuel dealers who install the heating units. Why install something that doesn't ensure reoccurring revenue? And the independent heating technicians are usually ones that started for a fuel dealer and broke off to do their own thing, so they continue doing what they know.

I know two HVAC company owners and neither came from the fuel retailer industry. Maybe it is a Vermont thing because I have never heard of that. Around here fuel oil is dying off in favor of propane because of the fuel cost. Most houses in and around Dayton Ohio are on piped natural gas though.