Replacing MH with CFL Revisited

[Indiana Wash]

Efficiency is important to me

You may not care how much light your dollars produce but the measure of lumens per watt is important to me. I would rather produce more light for every dollar I spend than less. That is what the measure of lumens per watt actually is, how much light you are getting for your dollar. After you get the light, how you direct it or focus it is up to you.

Also, one thing you have to consider is that the lumen rating of a MH is when it is new. The actual lumen output diminishes over the life of the bulb. That is not the case with CFL's.

 

[Kirb]

I just received my order of 105 watt cfl on Friday. I ordered a case to try them out. So far 4 broken bulbs, 2 burned out, and 6 working great. I call 1000bulbs and they are sending replacements out. I replaced my year old 175 mh with the cfl's and look to be more light. I am mad I didn't do this sooner.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Paul,

thanks for that post. That's some interesting information! There are a lot of things around my wash that on paper, should not be possible, but in reality, works just fine.

I think we get bogged down with too many numbers and specs sometimes. I originally wasn't going try the CFL's because people posted all these specs regarding lumens/watt, efficacy, etc, and the CFL's didn't look like they were going to measure up. Luckily, several operators were nice of enough to try them anyway and guess what? They seem to work just fine.

I've learned to use ratings, specs and calculations as a ballpark and if it's somewhat close and I'm interested, I'll give it a real world try. According to many charts and tables, my 3hp motors can't possibly be producing the pressure and gpm that my pumps are putting out. The list goes on and on.

Bottom line with the CFL's, if the wattage is less than your HID's, they last a reasonable number of hours, and they illuminate the area well enough, then they're saving you money.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

You may not care how much light your dollars produce but the measure of lumens per watt is important to me. I would rather produce more light for every dollar I spend than less. That is what the measure of lumens per watt actually is, how much light you are getting for your dollar. After you get the light, how you direct it or focus it is up to you.

Also, one thing you have to consider is that the lumen rating of a MH is when it is new. The actual lumen output diminishes over the life of the bulb. That is not the case with CFL's.

I think you did not read my post.

 

[Indiana Wash]

You may not care how much light your dollars produce but the measure of lumens per watt is important to me. I would rather produce more light for every dollar I spend than less. That is what the measure of lumens per watt actually is, how much light you are getting for your dollar. After you get the light, how you direct it or focus it is up to you.

Also, one thing you have to consider is that the lumen rating of a MH is when it is new. The actual lumen output diminishes over the life of the bulb. That is not the case with CFL's.

I think you did not read my post.

The only part that referenced you was the comment that you may not care how much light your dollars produce (lumens per watt).

All these threads about lighting...
I think I no longer care about lumens per watt.

I think you did not read your post.

Stop being so sensitive. It is just an internet discussion of lighting.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I always find this funny. I'll bet some of these operators are going back and forth, losing sleep over which bulb to switch to or try in their wallpack, when it will hardly make a difference with the piece of junk, yellowed up and filthy plastic lenses they haven't even considered changing.

 

[MEP001]

I think I no longer care about lumens per watt.
Lumen = amount of visible light emitted
Lux = lumens per square meter at the place where you want the light.

That's true, but remember this thread is about replacing metal halide bulbs in existing fixtures with CFL bulbs. Since lux comes into play when you're deciding where to hang fixtures, it's not part of the equation here.

 

[MEP001]

I always find this funny. I'll bet some of these operators are going back and forth, losing sleep over which bulb to switch to or try in their wallpack, when it will hardly make a difference with the piece of junk, yellowed up and filthy plastic lenses they haven't even considered changing.

That reminds me of an operator who once said to me that metal halides are worthless crap (This was years before any fluorescents were even as close to bright as they make them now). He showed me that he had just paid an electrician a ton of money to replace all his bulbs and several ballasts in his wall packs in his bays but they were still not as bright as he thought they should be. The plastic lenses were so many shades darker than yellow that they were BROWN.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

Stop being so sensitive. It is just an internet discussion of lighting.

not being sensitive, simply suggesting that you should re-read what I posted because either you did not read it or did not understand it.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

That's true, but remember this thread is about replacing metal halide bulbs in existing fixtures with CFL bulbs. Since lux comes into play when you're deciding where to hang fixtures, it's not part of the equation here.

In principle that makes sense.
But it doesnt explain why most of us who have done this conversion say that the "lighting appears to be relatively equal even though we have cut the lumens in half" - in spite of having not moved/changed the fixture. And it doesnt give us non-engineers a way to quantify how much light is hitting the hood of the car. Which is why I asked someone how to measure the amount of light I'm getting on the car, & he said "lux meter."

So if I wanted to objectively compare the lighting at my wash with the local gas station, the school gym, the bank parking lot at night, etc so that I can make a more informed lighting decision... how would you suggest I do so?

Just trying to understand.

 

[6t7gto]

Now up to eleven failures out of 18.
Filled out the RMA with 1000bulbs.com and will patiently wait for their response.
I have no concern that the bulbs won't be replaced as others have had no problem.
david

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Now up to eleven failures out of 18.
Filled out the RMA with 1000bulbs.com and will patiently wait for their response.
I have no concern that the bulbs won't be replaced as others have had no problem.
david

If I were you, I would come up with a plan to start eliminating possible problems. For example, rather than simply replacing your failed bulbs with new ones, I might number the 'good' bulbs from your original 18 and move them into fixtures that have failed already. When your replacement bulbs arrive, maybe you should run them at your house and give them a 1 week burn in test and see if you have failures there. Ask 1000bulbs if you could have 3 or 4 of another brand instead. If 2 of those fail, something is going on, as it doesn't seem like the majority of people are having the same trouble you are.

 

[soapy]

Lumens per watt on sample bulbs: lpw
CFL 105 watt 66 lpw 82 CRI
T8 32 watt 86 lpw 85 CRI
T5 HO 54w 93 lpw 91 CRI ( color rendering index )
250 watt MH 65 CRI
CRI is a measurement of how much light the human eye can recognize. The higher the CRI the more light that the human eye can use. Note how low the CRI is on a MH bulb vs. the others. That is why the others work better to the human eye and use less energy.

The only thing I can see that has not been mentioned on why the CFLs are burning out at such a high rate is heat. The ballast protion of a CFL needs to be open and not enclosed in any way. Surrounding the base of the bulb in any way can lead to heat build up causing the ballast to fail early. If they are put in old MH fixtures keep them as open as possible to diffuse the heat.

 

[2Biz]

Although I used the 85w bulbs, here are what I did to the shrouding inside the fixture. Maybe it is heat? With the 85w bulbs, I've checked the lens after they've been on for several hours and it is barely warm to the touch...

 

[MEP001]

But it doesnt explain why most of us who have done this conversion say that the "lighting appears to be relatively equal even though we have cut the lumens in half"

That part is obviously a subjective evaluation, and likely also includes the fact that metal halides lose a good portion of their light output at about half their rated life, so when someone replaces a bulb producing half its rated output with one that's rated at half the output it looks about as bright.

So if I wanted to objectively compare the lighting at my wash with the local gas station, the school gym, the bank parking lot at night, etc so that I can make a more informed lighting decision... how would you suggest I do so?

I don't think that's entirely possible. Quality of light is somewhat subjective, and affects how well an area appears to be lit. A 6500K bulb that is rated for more output than a 4100K bulb even looks brighter when you look directly at it, but it won't light up a bay as well.

 

[6t7gto]

Although I used the 85w bulbs, here are what I did to the shrouding inside the fixture. Maybe it is heat? With the 85w bulbs, I've checked the lens after they've been on for several hours and it is barely warm to the touch...

That is exactly how I installed mine.

 

[2Biz]

Now up to eleven failures out of 18.
Filled out the RMA with 1000bulbs.com and will patiently wait for their response.
I have no concern that the bulbs won't be replaced as others have had no problem.
david

6t7gto, you ever get this figured out?

 

[6t7gto]

1000bulbs.com sent me 11 replacements.
Got 14 up and working.
Need to convert 4 more.
One of the replacements failed in 24 hours. I'm going to wait a couple more weeks and ask them to replace it. Their service has been great.
That one was in the same fixture that failed previous. Has been good for a week now.
So far I have had a total of 12 out of 29 fail.
I think I may have gotten a bad batch of bulbs.
Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

I finally lost my first one (out of 80) this week. It was 19 months old. I installed a new bulb and couldn't see any difference in the light compared to the others. To be fair, it wasn't dark, just a cloudy dreary day. At 12 hrs per day it only lasted about 7000 hrs.

 

[MEP001]

I decided to try a similar conversion, but the three wall-packs aren't long or tall enough for one single, large CFL so I put three 42W bulbs in it. It appears brighter looking at the fixture but doesn't seem to put as much light on the ground. I need to make a reflector for it and maybe add a 4th bulb (It will still still be 80W less). The color of the lighting is a lot less harsh.