RFID for Vacuums

[jrecchi]

I am currently giving free vacs to unlimited wash club members at my exterior Wash. we provide tokens when a club member asks for one. I want to get away from doing tokens. I don't like the fact that the club members hoard the tokens (have to replace tokens) and I am sure they are using them for their other vehicles. My vacs are available to non-club customers (who pay) as well as club members who use them for free. My vacuum area cannot be arranged to separate the two different customer types. Since I already have RFID's at the pay stations and the club members have the RFID Tags on their windshield, it would be a lot easier if the same RFID tag could be set up to send a signal to a vac to turn it on for the club member. I would appreciate any input on how I can address the issue of using Tokens. I would like to continue providing Free Vacuums for Club Members as I perceive it as a good selling point.

 

[robert roman]

“….giving free vacs to unlimited wash club members….at express wash”

“My vacs are available to non-club customers (who pay) as well as club members who use them for free.”

“My vacuum area cannot be arranged to separate the two different customer types.”

So, in other words, you apply the freemium business model (free vacuum with carwash purchase) for discount customers but practice price discriminate with full-boat customers.

Personally, I don’t like being squeezed as customer, so I would visit an express where free vacuum comes with every purchase.

“I want to get away from doing tokens.” “I don't like the fact that the club members hoard the tokens (have to replace tokens) and I am sure they are using them for their other vehicles.”

Cause and effect – people have excess tokens for the simple reason they do not have the need to vacuum every time they wash.

I wouldn’t care what they used the tokens for because they bought the right to do so. If cost of tokens is the real issue, this means you didn’t properly account for their cost in the business model.

If you have become addicted to unlimited to the point of price discrimination, you might consider going to $3.00 or $4.00 base wash, dump the RFID and go central vacuum and get rid of the disguise.

 

[Earl Weiss]

“….

So, in other words, you apply the freemium business model (free vacuum with carwash purchase) for discount customers but practice price discriminate with full-boat customers.

Personally, I don’t like being squeezed as customer, so I would visit an express where free vacuum comes with every purchase.

.

This is one view and obviouslly this person is not the target market. The same crituqe could be used of many strategies. Buy the car with the higher trim level and get certain options standard. Buy the sandwhich and fries and get a free drink, and on and on.

Although not specified in the post, it also fails to address the issue of free loaders at unrestricted unlimited free vacs who vacuum for long periods of time yet never seem to buy a car wash. I know of some operators in the Chicago area who have gone to tokens with a wash purchase to combat this. Some have limited vacuum area and need to restrict the availability. As costs rise I can see it being more and more important to try and get people to upgrade from a $3.00 wash. The central vac setupo has the issue of running the big HP motor for all those times when only one or two people may be vacuuming.

I questioned it a few years ago and was told how it really didn't cost much more. Within a year or 2 Sonny's was selling what they called the "Rocket Vac" System with individual units and Tommy was selling something similar promoting the ability to use tokens or coins.

 

[JMMUSTANG]

How many people do have that pays for the vacuums?
I've heard of a couple of operators that are bringing in $500-1,000 per month cash with this type of setup.
If that's the case that should be enough money to cover the expenses and not worry about those (club members) that have already paid for the sevice. No matter which of their cars they vacuumed.
Wouldn't they help offset the cost of running and maintaning the vacs?
I like the idea of having customers who pay if they only want to vac, especially o n very cloudy days.
I guess I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[cwguy.com]

I don't think the windshield tags (which are a longer range tag 900mhz) would work. I would think it would interfere with near by vacs?

You would need to use a key chain dongle or something weird like idx thing. These dongles are a short range frequency.... which you would need for less interference. But then that person could just turn all your vacs on.

 

[Jeff_L]

I don't know what software package has the ability to do this, but it would be simple for a developer to build code that only allows one endpoint device to be enabled per RFID identifier. For example, to avoid dongles, key fobs, tokens etc, RFIDs seem to be the way to go. However, you bring up a great point about turning on all the vacs at one time. One would hope the software could use input from all the sensors/readers and make a decision as to which sensor (paystation, vac, bay) is receiving the strongest RFID signal and then decide that the user must be at that device. Thus, enabling it for your customer.

Is this available? I don't know, but I would certainly like to discuss this with a supplier of RFIDs/Software to come up with a working solution.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Couldn't the RFID simply energize a relay providing power and you would still need to push a button to activate a timer? I would think this is a better way to do, so the vac only operates as needed, not whenever the RFID is close.

 

[Jeff_L]

Yes - probably simpler that way. As long as one of the RFID readers "sees" the tag, then any device can be enabled by pressing a button. Once the equipment turns on, say a vacuum, then that RFID cannot be used to turn on any other devices such as a self serve bay, automatic, etc. Once the user presses some type of stop button, then any other device could then be used. I would probably build in a delay and some self checking mechanisms to prevent piggybacking.

 

[cwguy.com]

I'm not sure any 900mhz rfid system is built like described? Rfid is really made for tracking objects and readers I don't think register a strength reading? The reader either sees the tag or not. (It has been a while since I looked into this subject.... But I do have 3 rfid readers and 4 antennas I never did anything with. )

What you are talking about it polling all the rfid readers and checking for a tag and the strength for that tag..... before allowing credit to be added to the machine with the strongest tag strength. It totally sounds feasible. The only problem I see is getting the strength for the tag readings. It would also be preferred to use the 900mhz car stickers because the dongles could be shared.

 

[Jeff_L]

Eric - i agree, strength reading is probably too far down the road and not practical for our use. I think my other idea of having the user press a button to turn on the device is more practical. Like a switch - when the rfid tag is sensed, pressing any button once "closes" the loop and therefore the device is turned on. However, the software would need to have some type of latch in it that would disable that ID tag being used for any other device to prevent family and friends all pulling up and using one rfid and turning everything on. I think there are some things to be worked out, but can you imagine pulling into a wash that you pay a monthly fee for and just turning on and using what you need? It's an all you can eat buffet!

 

[cwguy.com]

I googled briefly on the topic again.... I believe the problem is with the passive tags used. You should be using those 900mhz passive tags that you can not remove without damaging the antenna. But if you wanted rssi (received signal strength indicator) you would need to use active tags. Which would be a nightmare.... Plus more expensive.

The alien, motorola and symbol RFID model readers I have don't support rssi. Plus I believe you would need to setup an antenna matrix to get rssi to work if you had a compatible reader? If they even produce them? But again I didn't research more then a minute.


But what might be nice is a 900mhz tag on the car then an additional dongle? Then the system would check for both? You would have to touch the dongle to the vac to start it. Or a smart card like key you insert like some vendor sells.... but also verify it with the RFID tag?

Again I like ideas where it is a very low chance of people allowing anyone to borrow the item. That is why everything includes the RFID verification. I also was thinking about NFC?

I do like this RFID idea again.... originally I was thinking about it just for my automatic. But site wide would be great! Plus the stickers are super cheap.... around $0.50 if I remember right?


Only problem would be range of antennas and cable lengths. That is why some RFID systems have the reader and antenna in a water proof box like drb or ics does? But I have not research equipment cost in a long time either.

 

[Jeff_L]

I think for the time being passive would be the way to go, at least my opinion. You'd have to have an antenna by each auto pay station, and perhaps some by the vac island(s), then probably one in each self serve bay. I've never researched the cost, but effectively you are creating a grid, but it wouldn't behave like one. I'd then install a button that a user would have to activate by pressing to turn on the end device, which would subsequently disable all other end devices by being enabled with the same rfid tag and button latched. The issue to solve would be how do you unlatch the button without user interaction and without troubling the customer. All I can think of right now is that they would have to manually press some stop button and/or you introduce a timeout type approach. Could get costly if you're wanting to use vehicle metal sensors and such.

A lot of ideas, just wish the bank account could support it! lol

 

[cwguy.com]

Now my info is old like I have said before but.....

The problem with so many antennas (which you would need) is not really the price of the antenna.... but the price of the cable and the length of the cable and the rfid reader. The price of the cable will probably be more then the antenna. Another cost is each rfid reader usually retails for around $1500-1800.

So lets just say on average for a 4 antenna unit it would cost around $1000 an antenna.
So for one antenna you got $300 for the cord and $200 for the antenna and $500 for the 25% of the reader. Or something like that?

That is why people put the rfid reader in a box right next to the antenna..... which reduces cord cost for the manufacturer.


Another issue would be.... example: a customer was at a vac which didn't work..... when they moved right away and tried another vac it wouldn't work either..... there session didn't time out yet. But I'm not sure you could fix that problem unless you used an insertable smartcard or key for example. Or the customer would have to turn there session off before turning a new vac on..... which they wouldn't remember to do. Unless you add a loop (expensive) or like you were saying a medal sensor.