Saving energy and money

[JMMUSTANG]

Hi - I am looking for enclosed, waterproof flourescent fixtures - is this what you purchased?

If not, do you know who carries them? / Thank you

I just got mine at Grangers.

 

[bigleo48]

So I did the math and changing my 480V MH to 120V CPF would save me about 12 cents a day! I didn't realize how energy efficient MH bulbs are! Bulb prices are actually a little more expensive for those big CPF bulbs, so no savings there either.

Big Leo

 

[Shorco1]

Efficiency: CFLs are four times more efficient and last up to 10 times longer than incandescent light bulbs. A 22 watt CFL has about the same light output as a 100 watt incandescent. Compact fluorescent light bulbs use 50 - 80% less energy than incandescent light bulbs.




Savings: Although initially more expensive, you save money in the long run because CFLs use 1/3 the electricity and last up to 10 times as long as incandescent light bulbs. A single 18 watt CFL used in place of a 75 watt incandescent will save about 570 kWh over its lifetime. At 8 cents per kWh, that equates to a $45 savings.

 

[MEP001]

Metal halides produce as much as 250% more light per watt than fluorescent. Doesn't that make them more than twice as efficient?

 

[Shorco1]

Fluorescent lighting offers a number of advantages versus metal halide lighting, including higher efficiency/energy savings, higher lumen maintenance, instant on and re-strike, emergency ballasting options, higher color rendering ability, negligible color shift, lamp-to-lamp color consistency, wide range of color options, and longer lamp life versus 250W metal halide lamps. In addition, fluorescent lamps, as a linear source, offer potentially more uniform lighting, less shadows and less glare. Fluorescent is also easily and inexpensively dimmable and is friendly with switching and control strategies using devices such as occupancy sensors, photocells and scheduling systems

 

[Earl Weiss]

CFL's and perhaps all flourescents contain mercury and need to be disposed of "Properly" which may or may not be difficult or incur a cost.

 

[Shorco1]

Project Examples: Timken Aerospace chose fluorescent when it upgraded its 142,000-sq.ft. manufacturing plant in Lebanon, NH. Because the facility makes precision ball bearings, high-quality lighting is required. The lighting operates around the clock, every day. In 1999, Timken upgrade 543 standard 400W metal halide low-bay fixtures with 2x4 232W T5HO fixtures from MetalOptics. The project, implemented by Timken personnel, cost $268,000 and benefited from a rebate of $91,500 from Granite State Electric, the plant’s utility. Timken reduced its demand by 120kW and saved more than 1,000,000 kWh, an annual savings of $70,200, resulting in a payback of 2.5 years. Timken also achieved its goal of high-quality lighting.

World Gym retrofitted eighteen 400W metal halide fixtures each with four T5HO biax lamps, reducing demand by 3.96kW and energy consumption by 54,810kW, or about 50%, resulting in $3,735 in savings per year. The investment yielded a simple payback of 1.8 years. Significant energy savings resulted from the installation of advanced lighting controls, which reduced the hours of operation by 55%. The new T5HO system provided 34% more light than the metal halide in addition to improved color quality.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

Wow, Cap'n Ken! I'll bet with all those stats you have sure made Doug proud.

 

[Shorco1]

Who's Doug and what's your point?

 

[bigleo48]

A 250W 480V MH lights use about the same amount of power as a 55 watt CPF bulb and Metal Halides has 10 times the Lumens. The rest I mostly agree with.

I'm not for any side, I just want to save $. But my calculations on my wash (that I crossed checked with my Industrial Electrician friends) do not show significant savings. Also, MH will dim and thus draw more power with age, so they should be replaced every 2 years.

BigLeo

 

[Earl Weiss]

A 250W 480V MH lights use about the same amount of power as a 55 watt CPF bulb and Metal Halides has 10 times the Lumens. The rest I mostly agree with.

I'm not for any side, I just want to save $. But my calculations on my wash (that I crossed checked with my Industrial Electrician friends) do not show significant savings. Also, MH will dim and thus draw more power with age, so they should be replaced every 2 years.

BigLeo

<<<

I am not an electrician and don't play one on TV. I can only guess your comparison is based on 120 V CFB at 55 watts and 250 W MH at 480V which at that voltage uses 1/4 the watts or 62.25. If this is correct, to a certain degree you are comparing apples to oranges because few places will use 480V.

Secondly, my HO flourescents are not compact but tubes and are wired with 220V. Only because that is the way the place was set up. I believe the 4 ft HO tube is a 60 watt rating for each of the 2 tubes and seems to do as well in a bay as a 250 watt MH. Due to the close proximity between the wall and car, the 4 foot tube covers a long area evenly. With the established wiring if the cost is based on watts. it is about half the cost of the 250 W MH.

The fixtures are about $150.00 at Grainger.

Grainger specs thes bulbs 48" 60 watt Flour to 250 watt MH as follows (Figures are approx)
Cost $7.00 $20.00
Lumens 4000 12000- 13000 average Initial much higher
Life Hours 12000 6000 horiz 100000 Vert

So, 2 48" high output bulbs seem to give 2/3 the light of a 250W MH for 2/3 the cost of operation (so cost per lumen seems about the same???) and also 2/3 the replacement bulb cost, but if your MH are horiz mount you will need to replace twice as often.

 

[Shorco1]

A 250W 480V MH lights use about the same amount of power as a 55 watt CPF bulb and Metal Halides has 10 times the Lumens. The rest I mostly agree with.

I'm not for any side, I just want to save $. But my calculations on my wash (that I crossed checked with my Industrial Electrician friends) do not show significant savings. Also, MH will dim and thus draw more power with age, so they should be replaced every 2 years.

BigLeo

Leo, show me where I can find the data that a 250W MH uses the same amount of power as a 55W CPF. Some how this does not calculate.

 

[MEP001]

longer lamp life versus 250W metal halide lamps

But not longer than 340W pulse-start metal halide. Poor comparison when you simply pick one that fits the need to raise your product above another.

fluorescent lamps, as a linear source, offer potentially more uniform lighting, less shadows and less glare

For tube fluorescents maybe, but not CFL, which makes this an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Fluorescent is also easily and inexpensively dimmable

Remember you're posting on a car wash forum where "dimmable" is unnecessary. We just want lots of light.

World Gym retrofitted eighteen 400W metal halide fixtures each with four T5HO biax lamps...

Copied and pasted directly from lightingtaxdeduction.org

 

[Shorco1]

The debate is in favor of CFL. The industry is headed toward saving enery. CFL's give out excellent light, save energy and look great. There are many benefits from compact fluorescent lamps. They consume much less electricity than conventional incandescent lamps, they last much longer and they can be used in place of almost any ordinary light bulb.

I've converted my vac islands to 65W CFL. I am converting my 22 250W Metal Halide to CFL 100W. I'm happy with results so much that I've had the power company disconnect the area lights that I've rented at both locations . Monthly savings in rental $248 plus the savings from the CFL's on the vac islands. The bays, when converted, will produce greater savings.

MEP, continue the debate. I'll just sit back and read.

Ken
B-727QF Captain (ret)

 

[Greg Pack]

A good topic for discussion. I've got two MH fixtures not operating right now so I may try to convert them.

I have not liked the color temperature of fluorescents in the past, but it sounds like they are getting warmer. The wash I have now is a bedroom community. Even the McDonalds two doors down closes at 10pm. I have so little business at night I've wondered if it even makes sense to run the lights all night. So I may be willing to give up a few lumens to save money.

My utility went up 6% in 2007 and 6% in 2008. A 6% increase every year will double the bill every 12 years. Past experience leads me to believe my income will not double every 12 years , so saving money where I can will be important.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

A good topic for discussion.

Amen! I dont think anybody should back out of this discussion.

My utility went up 6% in 2007 and 6% in 2008.

I envy you - mine went up 11% last February, then up another 19.7% this week. F#@!ing OUCH!

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

I've wondered if it even makes sense to run the lights all night.

FYI, this weekend I am rewiring my bay lights. Each bay currently has 2 MH lights on photocells. Effective this weekend (or as soon as I get the wiring done ), I will be shutting one of the lights off at midnight.

 

[MEP001]

I have not liked the color temperature of fluorescents in the past, but it sounds like they are getting warmer.

The color temperature rating determines the "warmth" of the light output. The better quality bulbs us a tri-phosphor coating which better simulates an incandescant light. I agree, the older CFL's and even the cheaper new ones are an ugly color almost as bad as mercury vapor. I recently replaced the equipment room fluorescent bulbs with better ones, and even though they're rated at a lower light output it seems brighter because the quality of light is so much better.

 

[MEP001]

http://www.1000bulbs.com/pg/Color-Measurement/

 

[Doug P.]

A 250W 480V MH lights use about the same amount of power as a 55 watt CPF bulb and Metal Halides has 10 times the Lumens. The rest I mostly agree with.

I'm not for any side, I just want to save $. But my calculations on my wash (that I crossed checked with my Industrial Electrician friends) do not show significant savings. Also, MH will dim and thus draw more power with age, so they should be replaced every 2 years.

BigLeo

The 250W 480V pulls about the same amps as the 55W 120V bulb but a watt is a watt regardless of voltage. All power companies bill by the watt so the 250W bulb will cost 4.55 times as much to run as the 55W.