Shorting out in bay

[Daveee123]

Hello people , Im a new person to this self service car wash bus. I have a 6 bay self service wash in Warren Mi. Iv only had it 10 months. Its going ok I like it but im stuck ! My 3rd bay shut off when a guy first started washing . I cant seem to fix it. I have only 6 selections in all bays. This bay the timer is in the mech. room. When I put it on stop , and go inside and push the button 6 times to activate the timer or( bay) and then go out and try and select any selection , the bay quits instantly , shuts off , I tried swithing timers , tried a different nice new faceplate from another bay thinking the coin acc. or rotary switch could be bad but no luck. The 3 big fuses are good , you can manually start the motor from motor starter, the little fuse is good , the breakers are good to the timer and the motor is getting 110 , 220 , 110 . I tried unhooking the little red wire to the coil in motor starter and no changes. Bay shuts off if you try to select anything from stop, if your not on stop and hit button to start is mech room 6 times ( 1.50 ) to start it just quits immediately. Tip , sometimes this short or whatever it is will make the timer shut off , its a 301 digital ginsan or whatever , so I noticed if I go out to bay and unplug the plug to faceplate ( coin acc and rotory switch) the timer will go back on. So how do I find this short or whatever , I cant find a short. Dave

 

[MEP001]

It's probably not a short, otherwise the fuse would blow.

The first thing I would check would be the phases of the incoming power. If you have a volt meter and can reach with it across two control boxes in the ER, test across the output from the 24V transformer and make sure it's 24V. If it isn't, make sure both incoming legs read 120V to ground. If they are, test the 24V load side to the same 24V load side of one of the nearby bays, and you should read 0V. Repeat with the 24V common side. Any matching voltage lead on that transformer to another bay should read 0V.

 

[Daveee123]

Hello again , I checked my transformer showed 22 volts or so with my cheap meter , seems ok , Each bay for me has its own transformer , it has 120 volts hot on one wire , one neutral coming in I think like them all , one breaker for me runs 2 timers. Its still shutting off in about one second. I checked the bay terminal looks ok and has the 22 volts coming in , little rust on incoming power but I tried to move wires over to blank side and same deal. Should I try to switch transformer and see if it fixes it ?

 

[MEP001]

Did you test voltage across two bays like I described?

If you start the timer on one of the positions that make it shut off when you select it when running, does it start and run normally?

 

[Daveee123]

Did you test voltage across two bays like I described?

If you start the timer on one of the positions that make it shut off when you select it when running, does it start and run normally?

Hello , no , the only way to get the timer and little green light in ER and at bay coin box to stay on is too start it on stop , then selecting anything will make it go off immediately.

Im not sure exactly how to check what your saying to do , my bays have separate transformers , timers, wiring ect. looks like each transformer runs on 120v , so only one hot wire to each transformer.

Dave

 

[MEP001]

It sounds like your transformer is going bad.

 

[2Biz]

Is there a way for you to check transformer voltage as it comes into the bay while you apply the load? You did mention rusty terminals. Maybe your terminals are not making good connection and when you apply load, your voltage is dropping enough to power down the timer. Also 22v is pretty low for a transformer. 26-28v is more typical.

Like Mep said, doesn't sound like a short, otherwise you'd blow a fuse. Its possible you have a bad transformer, but I'd check the rusty connections first.

 

[Daveee123]

Is there a way for you to check transformer voltage as it comes into the bay while you apply the load? You did mention rusty terminals. Maybe your terminals are not making good connection and when you apply load, your voltage is dropping enough to power down the timer. Also 22v is pretty low for a transformer. 26-28v is more typical.

Like Mep said, doesn't sound like a short, otherwise you'd blow a fuse. Its possible you have a bad transformer, but I'd check the rusty connections first.

Hello , wow I was surprised , today I ran two wires from a different transformer and its doing the same thing , cant believe it , im waiting on Powerbrite to come out and fix it for me but In the mean time I keep trying.
Those rusty terminals ; I had moved to the two connections next to it and it did same thing , no change at all , I must be doing something wrong or how about this , can someone tell me how to test the coil in the middle of the motor starter , when should the red wire screw have 24 volts , ? only when you select ,in my case , the 3 high pressure selections , wash , rinse , wax . ? and the timer is on ? I cant get timer to stay on more the .02 seconds so hard to test right . ?

 

[2Biz]

Ok…More things to check to get you closer. Disconnect the 24v lead to the motor starter coil and see if the timer still shuts down. The results may get you closer to figuring this out. Sometimes you just have to go through process of elimination.

Swapping transformers and getting the same results indicates the transformer is good. But still could be in the wiring in the bay box.

Try starting the timer while the switch is pointing to a LP function. If the timer stays on, maybe you have a bad motor starter coil…Just grabbing at straws.

You really need to invest in a good Voltmeter and some alligator clips. Makes checking for voltage drops a lot easier. If you’re like me, most of the time there are only 2 hands at the car wash! Mine! And sometimes I need 4!

 

[2Biz]

Your right about the motor starter. It will only show 24v between the two wires feeding it when the selector is on wash rinse or wax and the timer is on. If you knew what you were doing, you could jump directly from the transformer to the motor starter coil to eliminate it as the culprit, but if you jump the wrong wire, you'll let out the "Magic Smoke"!

 

[mjwalsh]

Daveee123,

This may not help in this situation but ...

Did you say that you tried a spare timer to see if the problem follows? In my opinion & of many engineers ... the better wiring is to have one side of the 24VAC on all the transformers be connected to the earth ground to avoid floating voltage ...

From my experience ... just checking voltages on equipment does not always get you to the solution. To be able to check for too much amp draw on a specific wire ... I have found to be helpful. A clamp on (one hand involved) non invasive versatile meter similar to my digital Fluke 325 sometimes can give you key information of the momentary over amperage that a bad coil or faulty wiring can cause. It is sensitive enough to possibly detect on a specific wire loss of amps that could also possibly lead to the diagnosis of a specific bad connection. Doing this along as doing what 2Biz suggested could be a winner.

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com

 

[MEP001]

You keep going back to this "floating voltage" thing, yet you are very limited in your knowledge of the various ways car washes can be wired. If his transformers are 240 to 24V, you can't ground one side of the transformer to earth ground.

 

[mjwalsh]

You keep going back to this "floating voltage" thing, yet you are very limited in your knowledge of the various ways car washes can be wired. If his transformers are 240 to 24V, you can't ground one side of the transformer to earth ground.

Daveee123 & MEP001,

Just to be clear & to avoid a misunderstanding. The binding to the ground is not done on the 240VAC primary. One of the terminals on the 24VAC secondary of the multiple transformers are bound together to the earth ground. Specialty Equipment's installers did it that way & that part of the 3 phase 230VAC installation at our specific facility that has proven itself since 1987.

I did not say some car washes may be blissfully wired differently & were also OK'd by a certified engineer &/or by the local electrical inspector.

I very humbly agree ... there are most certainly are a large number of qualified tradesmen & tradeswomen out there who are more familiar with the best practice wiring of the variety of transformers than myself. I was merely suggesting some things on the troubleshooting list to consider looking at.

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com

 

[MEP001]

Daveee123 & MEP001,

Just to be clear & to avoid a misunderstanding. The binding to the ground is not done on the 240VAC primary.

No kidding. (That's sarcasm, by the way)

One of the terminals on the 24VAC secondary of the multiple transformers are bound together to the earth ground. Specialty Equipment's installers did it that way & that part of the 3 phase 230VAC installation at our specific facility that has proven itself since 1987.

And does your system use 120V to 24V transformers? Because that outputs a 24V and a neutral that you can ground. A 240V to 24V transformer outputs TWO 12V AC. You're basically a fool for recommending that he ground one leg of the transformer without knowing what his system is running.

I very humbly agree ... there are most certainly are a large number of qualified tradesmen & tradeswomen out there who are more familiar with the best practice wiring of the variety of transformers than myself. I was merely suggesting some things on the troubleshooting list to consider looking at.

You say that "humbly," after you've said in several ways now that you believe your system is the only correct way they should be done...

 

[Stuart]

Is a resettable breaker tripping? or what? I might go to the coinbox and verify the wiring is the same as a working bay on the door and the terminal strip. I might even detach one wire at a time to be sure something at the term strip may not be the problem.

Get a jumperwire and hook it up to the 24v hot wire in the coinbox (your coin acceptor is hooked to the hot wire.). Then systematically take the other end of the wire and touch to each selection terminal on the selector switch. Verify the piece of equipment turned on. If it tripped that may be the culprit.
Another thing to check is on some ginsan timers (not sure if yours) if you cross the hot and common the timer turns off. You could have a common wire touching another which when becomes hot the timer stops. fwiw some of the BEST money you can spend for your carwash would be to find an electrician who understands controls, pay them to show you how to use a volt meter,what to look for, what to avoid. good luck

 

[Daveee123]

No kidding. (That's sarcasm, by the way)



And does your system use 120V to 24V transformers? Because that outputs a 24V and a neutral that you can ground. A 240V to 24V transformer outputs TWO 12V AC. You're basically a fool for recommending that he ground one leg of the transformer without knowing what his system is running.



You say that "humbly," after you've said in several ways now that you believe your system is the only correct way they should be done...

Yes my system uses 120v to 24v transformers , I cant wait to find out whats going on and ill put it up here , thanks everyone ill be reading this for months to come , im catching on thanks too this site and good people willing to share.
No no breaker is tripping , if I put the selection on stop , that's the only way to get the timer to start , ( push to start ) 6 times , for the 1.50 , but if I move rotory switch to ANYTHING , the timer quits , cancels , stops, sometimes it will shut itself off , read my first few messages. If it shuts itself off , I can go out to bay and unplug the faceplate ,and it goes back on , I put on a good plate from another bay and same thing happens. Although I can get it to go on again , that wash is still cancelled. I can just keep doing the same thing to try to start it but cant. I have looked hard at terminal strip and don't see any problem.. thx again

 

[mjwalsh]

Is a resettable breaker tripping? or what? I might go to the coinbox and verify the wiring is the same as a working bay on the door and the terminal strip. I might even detach one wire at a time to be sure something at the term strip may not be the problem.

Get a jumperwire and hook it up to the 24v hot wire in the coinbox (your coin acceptor is hooked to the hot wire.). Then systematically take the other end of the wire and touch to each selection terminal on the selector switch. Verify the piece of equipment turned on. If it tripped that may be the culprit.
Another thing to check is on some ginsan timers (not sure if yours) if you cross the hot and common the timer turns off. You could have a common wire touching another which when becomes hot the timer stops. fwiw some of the BEST money you can spend for your carwash would be to find an electrician who understands controls, pay them to show you how to use a volt meter,what to look for, what to avoid. good luck

Daveee123,

Stuart makes some good points. If you do invest in a good multimeter ... one of its selections will be to measure ohms (resistance). We have found success in writing down the ohms of pertinent good solenoids after measuring with the multimeters probes ... preferably brand new solenoid coils (on relays, motor starters, chemical & water solenoids etc). From that baseline you can see if your existing coils have that proper resistance between their 2 terminals. If they don't ... take that as a potential problem for bad electronic feedback or even a dead short (0 ohms)!

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com

 

[Stuart]

Thinking out loud, make a list of what color wire on the term strip goes to which function. Remove door. locate "load"wire from timer and put the jumper on it. turn the timer on in the ER. Touch the other end of jumper wire to a "selection" terminal and watch to see if function starts.
Do this on each wire with timer on. If timer turns off on certain function- that wire may be the problem. If it happens on each function-check the load wire.

also, you stated you had 22 volts and rust on terminals. You might strip wires and make new connections. If you have a 24v transformer you ought to get 24 out of it. Also make sure you are getting 120 into the transformer. This too makes a big difference. Check 120 connections.
Another test/disconnect your transformer and wire the transformer from the next pumpstand to the problem pumpstand. See if the problem still occurs.

Has this bay always had a problem for a few weeks or did it just start? Did you recently do some work on this system?
It also sounds as if you have a 120v/24v transformer but the voltage amps are too low. I use a transformer with 100va for each bay.

All this is apart of troubleshooting and the more you understand how things work and what wires do what as well as hoses, valves, etc. you will be able to spot a problem on your equipment quickly.

 

[Daveee123]

Thinking out loud, make a list of what color wire on the term strip goes to which function. Remove door. locate "load"wire from timer and put the jumper on it. turn the timer on in the ER. Touch the other end of jumper wire to a "selection" terminal and watch to see if function starts.
Do this on each wire with timer on. If timer turns off on certain function- that wire may be the problem. If it happens on each function-check the load wire.

also, you stated you had 22 volts and rust on terminals. You might strip wires and make new connections. If you have a 24v transformer you ought to get 24 out of it. Also make sure you are getting 120 into the transformer. This too makes a big difference. Check 120 connections.
Another test/disconnect your transformer and wire the transformer from the next pumpstand to the problem pumpstand. See if the problem still occurs.

Has this bay always had a problem for a few weeks or did it just start? Did you recently do some work on this system?
It also sounds as if you have a 120v/24v transformer but the voltage amps are too low. I use a transformer with 100va for each bay.

All this is apart of troubleshooting and the more you understand how things work and what wires do what as well as hoses, valves, etc. you will be able to spot a problem on your equipment quickly.

Yea thanks Stuart and everyone , Powerbrite came out today and the coolest guy Pat started at the bay jumping it to try making it work a few functions and then it would stop as usual , the timer would shut off , he went in the ER after that and after looking a bit figured out in the motor starter he pointed to the lower part of the motor starter and said it was a bad connection or contact of the neutral in the " power block " I think he called it, I had a new used motorstarter I had bought from ebay for really cheap .. 11.99 plus shipping , Pat was like wow great deal , he took the heaters and coil off old one and put it together and taught me a lot too about the wiring of it all , then went to the bay and whammo , working again , he was right. There are times I don't mind paying when Powerbrite is that good !

Dave

 

[2Biz]

What is the voltage of the transformer now that you have the neutral connection fixed? Do all the bay transformers match? Thanks for coming back to tell us the how the problem was resolved!