Solar Power at a Self Service Car Wash?
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robert roman
Bob Roman
When I was an environmental program manager, one of my projects was the county’s alternative fuel vehicle program – Chevy S-10 pick-up truck that was converted from gasoline powered engine to electric motor with batteries and solar panels.
Solar technology is fairly complicated and a lot to consider in determining installation cost and benefit and pay-back period which is generally about ten years for home installations.
Most grid tied-in systems (selling electricity back to utility) don’t have batteries because the cost is too high.
There are calculators online you can play with to estimate benefit cost of solar panels.
You need to know demand (kilowatt hours per month), roof area and average sun hours a day averaged over the year.
Solar technology is fairly complicated and a lot to consider in determining installation cost and benefit and pay-back period which is generally about ten years for home installations.
Most grid tied-in systems (selling electricity back to utility) don’t have batteries because the cost is too high.
There are calculators online you can play with to estimate benefit cost of solar panels.
You need to know demand (kilowatt hours per month), roof area and average sun hours a day averaged over the year.
Call a solar panel installer and get a quote. It will give you a general cost estimate (which will be too high due to needlessly expensive installation costs)
I had panels installed on my flat roof before prices of panels came down. The roi was very poor before the city, state and federal assistance (only formal handouts I've ever received and I feel guilty)
My grid tied system is surprisingly simple:
-lay plastic mounting brackets on roof
-place panels on brackets and secure to brackets
-lay cinder blocks on brackets for ballast
-plug wires from panels (each panel has its own inverter and voltage regulator) into cutoff switch
-run switch to panel
Next time I will do everything myself and have electrician review and run the wires from cutoff to panel. I would appreciate the opportunity to help someone else do this. It's about as difficult as Lincoln logs.
I had panels installed on my flat roof before prices of panels came down. The roi was very poor before the city, state and federal assistance (only formal handouts I've ever received and I feel guilty)
My grid tied system is surprisingly simple:
-lay plastic mounting brackets on roof
-place panels on brackets and secure to brackets
-lay cinder blocks on brackets for ballast
-plug wires from panels (each panel has its own inverter and voltage regulator) into cutoff switch
-run switch to panel
Next time I will do everything myself and have electrician review and run the wires from cutoff to panel. I would appreciate the opportunity to help someone else do this. It's about as difficult as Lincoln logs.
Earl Weiss
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I think therein lies the key. Subsidies vary widely by City / County/ Sate. The ROI rarely makes sense without subsidies unless you are a tree hugger placing great value on a warm fuzzy feeling. (Not that there is anything wrong with that. )
Earl-I agree BUT we are a clever group and I THINK that since most of the cost of solar is in installation and the install on a flat roof is VERY simple it is worth investigating. Admittedly this has been on my mind for a long time and would like to see it tested.
Car_Wash_Guy
Well-known member
I just closed on my wash in July, and I can't really offer you much info as I'm not really a proponent of solar(retail installed prices vs. potential savings). There is a system on my wash, 55 panels. My July-August bill was ($157.04). That is I got all my electricity for free, and banked $157.04 in credit. Supposedly the previous owners spent ~$75K on just the solar photovoltaic system.
What I can tell you is that at least in my area, utility companies are beginning to pay less per kWh. That is something definitely to consider when running the numbers.
What I can tell you is that at least in my area, utility companies are beginning to pay less per kWh. That is something definitely to consider when running the numbers.
As Earl said I think very few solar systems will compete on an ROI basis with grid power without subsidies. I suspect that our flat roofs present a DIY opportunity that might change that. I realize I am repeating myself but since I think this is an opportunity for us I don't want it to get smothered in poor ROI examples (which I agree with).
At first I didn't understand how you got paid but I realized that your system made so much power that you got paid. My system does not produce that much. In Illinois you bank over production in one month to be used later in the year. I think it is use it or lose it by year end though. If you slightly undersize your system then there is not an issue.
Rephrasing my main point: I think I got ripped off by my installer and I want to prove it by helping someone DIY. It shouldn't have cost as much and I was an accomplice in this installation by allowing it to happen. Its one thing for me to get ripped off but I externalized it to all of my fellow citizens via the subsidies and I feel guilty.
In addition, this is a rare chance for me to contribute to this group which I have learned a lot from.
At first I didn't understand how you got paid but I realized that your system made so much power that you got paid. My system does not produce that much. In Illinois you bank over production in one month to be used later in the year. I think it is use it or lose it by year end though. If you slightly undersize your system then there is not an issue.
Rephrasing my main point: I think I got ripped off by my installer and I want to prove it by helping someone DIY. It shouldn't have cost as much and I was an accomplice in this installation by allowing it to happen. Its one thing for me to get ripped off but I externalized it to all of my fellow citizens via the subsidies and I feel guilty.
In addition, this is a rare chance for me to contribute to this group which I have learned a lot from.
soapy
Senior Member
I think there is a wash in Fruitland Idaho that has a solor setup. The guy who installed it comes by once a year trying to get me to put his system in but I have not been interested.
robert roman
Bob Roman
Here’s one from my files.
Tax credits and rebates equal 56 percent of project cost, payback period is 8 years.
Subtract credits and rebates and factor in 20 percent “decrease” in panel efficiency by tenth year (which most people do not include in analysis) and payback increases to 18 years.
Panel warranty is 25 years.
Without subsidies, this project is not sustainable. Principal reason is scale, most carwash is too small.
Lots of sun here in Florida, over 3,000 people per square mile where I am, and tons of rooftops.
Over last 10 years, probably one out of 100 homes has installed solar panels on roof.
If solar panels were sustainable development, wouldn’t you think the penetration would be far greater?
If you consider other ways businesses can reduce energy consumption using best management practices, then solar panels make even less sense because the benefit is smaller.
Tax credits and rebates equal 56 percent of project cost, payback period is 8 years.
Subtract credits and rebates and factor in 20 percent “decrease” in panel efficiency by tenth year (which most people do not include in analysis) and payback increases to 18 years.
Panel warranty is 25 years.
Without subsidies, this project is not sustainable. Principal reason is scale, most carwash is too small.
Lots of sun here in Florida, over 3,000 people per square mile where I am, and tons of rooftops.
Over last 10 years, probably one out of 100 homes has installed solar panels on roof.
If solar panels were sustainable development, wouldn’t you think the penetration would be far greater?
If you consider other ways businesses can reduce energy consumption using best management practices, then solar panels make even less sense because the benefit is smaller.
Robert,
I agree that before solar panels are installed other steps should be done to minimize electrical costs; such as LED lighting, choosing an alternative electrical suppliers, etc. The electricity you don't use at all is clearly the cheapest.
At some point you run out of the highest roi items and get to solar power as a consideration.
I don't understand the small roof scale issue. Small roof equals less panels equals less cost. Isn't it linear?
I've never heard of the 20% efficiency reduction but I'll look into it; conceptually it makes sense.
I think solar power is sustainable (if defined as renewable) and I'm guessing there is not more penetration due to relative cost. The alternatives are cheaper (coal, nuclear). I haven't found a solar installer that I could ask the cost questions to (ie parts vs labor vs permitting costs and where to find good panels at direct prices)
My suspicion is that as solar gets more popular the installing side becomes less elite and prices come down. It seems similar to organic food in that it costs more to produce but I suspect the margins are higher due to the premium that the organic consumers are willing to pay.
The idea of being more free via solar is very appealing (one of the reasons I quit my corporate job: freedom); it keeps my interest in solar.
I agree that before solar panels are installed other steps should be done to minimize electrical costs; such as LED lighting, choosing an alternative electrical suppliers, etc. The electricity you don't use at all is clearly the cheapest.
At some point you run out of the highest roi items and get to solar power as a consideration.
I don't understand the small roof scale issue. Small roof equals less panels equals less cost. Isn't it linear?
I've never heard of the 20% efficiency reduction but I'll look into it; conceptually it makes sense.
I think solar power is sustainable (if defined as renewable) and I'm guessing there is not more penetration due to relative cost. The alternatives are cheaper (coal, nuclear). I haven't found a solar installer that I could ask the cost questions to (ie parts vs labor vs permitting costs and where to find good panels at direct prices)
My suspicion is that as solar gets more popular the installing side becomes less elite and prices come down. It seems similar to organic food in that it costs more to produce but I suspect the margins are higher due to the premium that the organic consumers are willing to pay.
The idea of being more free via solar is very appealing (one of the reasons I quit my corporate job: freedom); it keeps my interest in solar.
soapy
Senior Member
When ever I think of solar power I think of the huge solar power generating plant south of Las Vegas. Millions was spent on it with government subsidies and it was designed by experts. Now that it is up and running it is 40% less efficient than was projected because the EXPERTS forgot to figure in that the water would cool over night and it takes so long to heat the water each morning that it losses 40% of its power generating capacity.
Soapy,
When I think of Solar I think how can we collectively have created a situation where we can't take advantage of nearly free energy (post installation) that will be around as long as we need it and has near no downside.
A more direct response to your Las Vegas example: whenever the government does almost anything they are lying, cheating and stealing from us and they are generally incompetent. So I agree that the situation you described is true but I think it has more to do with the government and less about solar (i.e. almost every government project is over budget and under performs and IMO they knew that going in and they personally stole some money somehow)
When I think of Solar I think how can we collectively have created a situation where we can't take advantage of nearly free energy (post installation) that will be around as long as we need it and has near no downside.
A more direct response to your Las Vegas example: whenever the government does almost anything they are lying, cheating and stealing from us and they are generally incompetent. So I agree that the situation you described is true but I think it has more to do with the government and less about solar (i.e. almost every government project is over budget and under performs and IMO they knew that going in and they personally stole some money somehow)
robert roman
Bob Roman
Sunlight and “free” energy comes at great cost to the Sun because it’s slowly dying every day while providing it.
We take advantage of the Sun everyday to grow crops, stay warm, see where we are going, get a suntan, etc. In Vegas, I’ve seen people cook eggs on the hoods of cars during the summer months.
However, it’s not always 100 degrees plus and 100 percent sunshine. This is why solar air heaters and swimming pool heaters are not very efficient. Of course, these systems aren’t nearly as expensive as PV roof system.
You can’t cheat physics.
I own an e-bike. I can practically hold the lithium ion battery in the palm of my hand and it will take me 20 miles in mode A. Takes 2-3 hours to recharge, cost $0.05 in electricity.
Lead acid battery is heavy like bowling ball, only goes 10 miles in mode A and takes 4 to 6 hours to recharge, cost $0.10 in electricity.
Lithium battery cost $450 (500 recharge cycles) and lead acid cost $200 (only 200 recharge cycles).
If PV roof system was truly cost effective in terms of converting sunlight into electrical energy, credits and rebates would not be necessary. The conversion rate simply needs to get better to make it practical.
I was a civil servant for ten years. Government employees don’t make spending decisions, politicians do.
We take advantage of the Sun everyday to grow crops, stay warm, see where we are going, get a suntan, etc. In Vegas, I’ve seen people cook eggs on the hoods of cars during the summer months.
However, it’s not always 100 degrees plus and 100 percent sunshine. This is why solar air heaters and swimming pool heaters are not very efficient. Of course, these systems aren’t nearly as expensive as PV roof system.
You can’t cheat physics.
I own an e-bike. I can practically hold the lithium ion battery in the palm of my hand and it will take me 20 miles in mode A. Takes 2-3 hours to recharge, cost $0.05 in electricity.
Lead acid battery is heavy like bowling ball, only goes 10 miles in mode A and takes 4 to 6 hours to recharge, cost $0.10 in electricity.
Lithium battery cost $450 (500 recharge cycles) and lead acid cost $200 (only 200 recharge cycles).
If PV roof system was truly cost effective in terms of converting sunlight into electrical energy, credits and rebates would not be necessary. The conversion rate simply needs to get better to make it practical.
I was a civil servant for ten years. Government employees don’t make spending decisions, politicians do.
Greg Pack
Wash Weenie
late to the thread but I have fooled with some small scale portable solar and some small residential solar systems. As has been mentioned, if there are no incentives at the State level or with your utility, solar doesn't make financial sense at this time.
If it did, there would be a lot of corporations investing in it. I'm sure the bean counters at walmart or corporations have looked at it.
Solar water heating might be worth taking a harder look at though.
If it did, there would be a lot of corporations investing in it. I'm sure the bean counters at walmart or corporations have looked at it.
Solar water heating might be worth taking a harder look at though.
