Solenoids for corrosive lo-ph triple foam? (And product suggestions?)

[Mchas]

Hi guys - hoping you can help with a problem I am having at my self-serve wash. I have a triple foam system that uses a lo-ph chemical and it seems to eat away at the solenoids until they leak and then the colors blend together. I have tried a few different Dema solenoids from KR and still have the problem. They have both been brass but it’s the ring inside that gets eaten away and causes it to not make a tight seal when closed.

Any recommendations for a particular solenoid for this application? They would be 3/8”, 24V normally closed.

Thanks in advance!

(Edit: updated orifice size)

 

[Car_Wash_Guy]

I used one of these in a bind on my grand opening in July 2015, and it's still working. Since then, I've slowly replaced EVERY solenoid controlling cold/hot water that fails with these with great success.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rain-Bird-3-4-in-FPT-In-Line-Valve-CP075/202078357

Now I'll add that I haven't tried sending chemical through them but at the rate you're killing the expensive Dema's, I'd at least try it.

 

[OurTown]

Hi guys - hoping you can help with a problem I am having at my self-serve wash. I have a triple foam system that uses a lo-ph chemical and it seems to eat away at the solenoids until they leak and then the colors blend together. I have tried a few different Dema solenoids from KR and still have the problem. They have both been brass but it’s the ring inside that gets eaten away and causes it to not make a tight seal when closed.

Any recommendations for a particular solenoid for this application? They would be 3/4”, 24V normally closed.

Thanks in advance!

I assume you meant they are 1/4" and not 3/4". A lot of people will recommend the Kip solenoids but you need to know what size orifice you need and if you need it to have a metering screw. Something like this.

https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-1849-kip-solenoids-14-24-v-metering-side-orifice-18.aspx

Our wash uses the GV Valves with stainless bodies for our presoak and they seem to last but they are pricey. Whatever you use make sure the seals are rated for low ph chemicals. High ph requires Viton seals but there might be something better for low ph. What is the ph of your triple foam chemicals?

 

[Greg Pack]

Most stainless solenoids should work OK. Coleman uses a SMC stainless solenoid on their autos. I'm not sure where they get it but they last for 5+years with a very corrosive Hi Ph product running through them.

My question would be: Why use a low ph soap as a triple foam application in a SS? Those are popular in IBAs and tunnels to help get rid of the excess alkalinity but you really shouldn't have that problem in a SS environment. Although more expensive, I think a true polish/wax will give better overall results.

 

[OurTown]

If you go with a Kip valve here is some info on them to help you decide the model you need.

https://airinc.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/KIP-Valve-Products.pdf

 

[Mchas]

Thanks for all the great replies! To answer some questions:

- The orifice size is 3/8” (I mistakenly typed 3/4 in the original post which is way too big)

- The dema valves that I have been using so far are these:

Dema A413P Brass 3/8" NC Pilot-Piston Solenoid Valve | 24VAC Coil, Teflon Seal

Order the Dema A413P.3 pilot-piston solenoid valve at the best price. Ideal for water and non-hazardous fluids.

www.kleen-ritecorp.com

Dema 473P.3 Diaphragm Solenoid Valve - Brass, 3/8," Buna Seal, 24VAC | Kleen-Rite

The Dema Engineering 473P.3 normally closed solenoid valve has a max. pressure of 150 PSI. Order online for the best prices!

www.kleen-ritecorp.com

(The second one was recommended by KR after I kept having problems w the first, but I just had one of the second ones go bad too)

- I see now in the descriptions of both that they are for non-corrosive liquids, so obviously not the right part for what I need

- I looked up the pH of the product I am using for triple foam and the product sheet says 3.0. It is the “Armorall LO-pH conditioner”.

- as for the question of why I am using this product, it is what our repair and chemical supply company recommended. They are very good at what they do and own a bunch of their own self-serve washes and I trust them, but it is possible that there would be a better product to use?

- Just as an FYI we do also have a “wax” (clear coat protectant) as a separate feature so maybe that’s why they chose the lo-ph conditioner for triple foam?

I will see if I can find the appropriate Kip stainless valve and try those next time. I am fine spending more money to get something that lasts, it is better than buying a new $60+ dema valve every 6-12 months and having to spend time repairing it (and dying my hands like a rainbow in the process!)

 

[Randy]

I think you really need to reevaluate the chemicals you are using and not rely on any of the distributors. Most of them are in the business of selling chemicals and not helping their customers be successful. I could care less if my chemical guys have car washes and what they use. It’s what works for my operation. A DEMA 0413P or a 0473 solenoid valve isn’t the valve you should be using. You need to use a stainless steel solenoid valve, like a Kip solenoid, I can’t understand why you’re using a 3/8” solenoid valve.

 

[Mchas]

What chemicals would you recommend for this? I am open to ideas.

I will take and post some photos tomorrow of the setup. It has 3 tanks with 3/8” valves coming out of the bottom, then the solenoids which have 3/8” hose barbs on the outside which connect to clear tubing that the chemical flows through to a flojet pump. It was all there when I bought the wash and generally works fine except for the solenoids wearing out so I haven’t had a reason to change the setup at all. Maybe it will make more sense once I post some photos next time I am there.

 

[Earl Weiss]

What chemicals would you recommend for this? I am open to ideas.

FWIW I went to KR Low PH for my Pre soak, and HP Soap and Cherry Blossom forFB, and Kleen white for Tires, Just peachy for Wax. Saved a chunk of money over the name brands. Did not like their typical SS pre soak and HP. Had jelling issues with those. None with the Low PH I also use in the Tunnel.

 

[MEP001]

A Kip solenoid won't flow enough for the supply side.

I'm surprised DEMA doesn't make a stainless version of the 412P. That would be ideal. They make a diaphragm-type all stainless solenoid in 3/8" that's not too expensive, but the diaphragm is EDPM which is rated "unsatisfactory" for low pH.

3/8" Normally Closed Steel Solenoid | Dema Eng. | 463PSV.3

This normally closed solenoid valve has a stainless steel body and is designed for non-corrosive low pressure applications.

www.kleen-ritecorp.com

If you want to stick with the chemical you're using, I'd recommend a solenoid that's all stainless with Teflon seals. I'd rather switch chemicals - I'm using the Simoniz UVP triple foam polish. It works as it promises, doesn't stain, and it's cheap.

 

[Mchas]

Thanks again for the helpful replies. I just took a few photos to show the current setup. If I can’t find a solenoid that works, it sounds like switching chemicals is the next best option. Any additional suggestions are appreciated!

 

[OurTown]

I see now that the Kip solenoids are going to be too restrictive.

 

[Greg Pack]

Most of your problems go away by switching to a true polish/wax product. Low Ph soap is going to be easier to get to foam well and look good and probably cheaper per use. Low ph soap might also be useful to enhance the appearance of glass and chrome. But a true polish will bead on the car, and an observant user will see the behavior of the water change after they rinse it off. I actually use a premium wax product that is quite expensive but over time the function has gotten more and more popular as customers catch on to it.

 

[OurTown]

I'm sure that system was not designed to use a product with a ph of 3.

 

[MEP001]

Also it's the low pH products that turn the black ABS plastic on vehicles like the Pilot and Avalanche gray.

 

[Mchas]

I think you guys are probably right that I should switch chemicals and that this basic setup wasn’t originally designed for this low ph product. I will start looking for an alternative. Appreciate all of the helpful advice!

 

[Mchas]

Bumping my old thread to ask for a bit more advice. After the help in this thread from a few years ago, I switched away from the “lo pH” product to a neutral product and my triple foam solenoids have been fine ever since.

But now I am basically just dispensing colored soap which is not good. What do you guys use for triple foam products? I would like to find something high quality that customers will see the effect of on their cars. Any suggestions?

 

[Greg Pack]

Hi Mchas, look for products from your mfg called "foaming polish". They will contain silicone. Almost every manufacturer has one. I have used one from Quest called colorguard. In SS, you want a foam with some hang time. Tunnels like to use products that break down quickly so avoid those if you can just because the show is better with the ones that hang around.

You may want to look for the newer generation of products that usually have carnuba or ceramic in the name. In reality is is still polymers, silicones and siloxanes doing their thing but they can offer better shine and/or durability than the traditional products. I'm using Quest's vantagloss but I have to add dye into it with a dual port eductor.

In all honesty the show with polishes won't be as good as with the soaps but you're actually selling a product that is beneficial for the customer to apply, not just selling colored foam.

 

[Mchas]

Hi Mchas, look for products from your mfg called "foaming polish". They will contain silicone. Almost every manufacturer has one. I have used one from Quest called colorguard. In SS, you want a foam with some hang time. Tunnels like to use products that break down quickly so avoid those if you can just because the show is better with the ones that hang around.

You may want to look for the newer generation of products that usually have carnuba or ceramic in the name. In reality is is still polymers, silicones and siloxanes doing their thing but they can offer better shine and/or durability than the traditional products. I'm using Quest's vantagloss but I have to add dye into it with a dual port eductor.

In all honesty the show with polishes won't be as good as with the soaps but you're actually selling a product that is beneficial for the customer to apply, not just selling colored foam.

Thanks Greg! Our chemical manufacturer is Blue Coral / Armorall and I just looked at their offerings and I see Armorall makes several Polishes and Clear Coat polishes.

Anyone use these and have any opinions?

 

[2Biz]

I use Warsaw 721 R, B, & Y...TF Polish. I've never had an issue with the 1/2" brass GC solenoids at the tanks or the brass kip manifold that directs chemical to the bays. Been installed over 10 years and haven't changed the first solenoid.