In my touchless automatic I do a HP rinse right after the wax and then go to the spot free. I was at a location yesterday that followed the wax with spot free and didn't do a HP rinse. Do any of you guys do this? Am I wrong with my set up? On a related note I went through a local competitor's brand new wash a month or so ago and his set up put triple foam on top of the presoaks and then rinsed them with HP. I don't think that will help any at all.
Spot Free After Wax
- Thread starter cdreed06
- Start date
robert roman
Bob Roman
“….do a HP rinse….after the wax….then…spot free.” “Am I wrong with my set up?”
Not wrong, inefficient.
With touch-less process, cleaning is completed after applying high-pressure water.
So, additional HP would be redundant.
I bet if you dumped the HP after wax you would get a drier vehicle and use less water.
“…..his set up put triple foam on top of the presoaks and then rinsed them with HP.”
Layering tri-foam over detergent is possible because these products are mostly siliconized soap.
This practice also reduces time thereby increasing hourly capacity.
Not wrong, inefficient.
With touch-less process, cleaning is completed after applying high-pressure water.
So, additional HP would be redundant.
I bet if you dumped the HP after wax you would get a drier vehicle and use less water.
“…..his set up put triple foam on top of the presoaks and then rinsed them with HP.”
Layering tri-foam over detergent is possible because these products are mostly siliconized soap.
This practice also reduces time thereby increasing hourly capacity.
Your set up is the right way to do it. it makes no sense to apply triple foam over the presoaks but it is done usually in washes that have limited functions. I have even seen trifoams applied before the wash process which is really a waste.
washnvac
Well-known member
I have two LW4000s. I put spot free on right after medium pressure sealant application. SF is at 150 psi. Applying right after sealant helps the SF bead off the vehicle; thus helping with the drying process. And the drying needs all the help it can get, because the two 10 hp producers are barely adequate.
Technically a rinse with hard water actually helps drying much better than spot free. Hard water increases the surface tension of waTER making it easier for it to bead while spot free reduces the surface tension of water which tends to make water puddle. Years ago operators used to apply a fine mist of tap water and call it a setting rinse. It worked like a charm.
Waxman
Super Moderator
my top wash:
1.presoak 1, 10 sec dwell
2. presoak 2. 10 sec dwell
3. hp rinse
4. lo ph foam polish
5. hp rinse
6. medium pressure teflon sealer wax
7. spot free rinse
8. blowdry
1.presoak 1, 10 sec dwell
2. presoak 2. 10 sec dwell
3. hp rinse
4. lo ph foam polish
5. hp rinse
6. medium pressure teflon sealer wax
7. spot free rinse
8. blowdry
soonermajic
Well-known member
rph, so are you saying you should just kip Spot Free Rinse, & finish w a HP rinse? Of course finish w/ bow dry...after the HP? But what about the low wash package, w/ no blow dry?
No. I think the spot free rinse is important especially for the many washes where the customer drives off without drying the vehicle. The point I was trying to make is that hard or tap water rinses the car much more efficiently that spot free. What spot free accomplishes is exactly what the name implies - dries spot free. In most cases when the customer drive off the remaining water falls off the vehicle and what is left on the surface does not create spots. I was simply validating what Cdreed had said about the way his wash was set up. "In my touchless automatic I do a HP rinse right after the wax and then go to the spot free."
I still haven't done it yet, but I intend to take the last HP rinse out. The only worry I have is the top package wax is foamy (we wanted it that way) and not sure that the spot free will rinse it enough. I'll play with it. Thanks to all who answered.
MEP001
Well-known member
I have that problem with the top wash due to the tri-foam, and have a medium-pressure pass before the spot-free, the rest of the packages do wax and spot-free right after. They come out without any issues.
Have you tried slowing the spot free pass down?
A lot depends on what product you are using for your trifoams. If you are using a detergent it would be harder to rinse with only spot free. True polish waxes would rinse better but cost quite a bit more. One option you might consider is to use a clear coat protectant for one of your trifoam colors. While the product foams it dissipates and would make rinsing much easier.
robert roman
Bob Roman
“…..rinse with hard water actually helps drying much better than spot free. Hard water increases the surface tension of waTER making it easier for it to bead while spot free reduces the surface tension of water which tends to make water puddle. Years ago operators used to apply a fine mist of tap water and call it a setting rinse.”
Puddles occur because a liquid with a high surface tension (hard water) pulls more strongly on the surrounding liquid than one with a low surface tension (soft water).
The phenomenon is seen with tears of wine on glass.
Also those carwash operators that used setting rinse years ago mostly wiped up excess water with towels. Otherwise, hard water tends to leave spots.
For example, dishwasher rinse aid contains special surfactants that prevent drops from forming so that water drains from the surfaces in thin sheets rather than forming droplets.
Mr. Clean Auto Dry Car Wash system uses such special surfactants. Wash car, rinse and let air dry. No wiping.
Today, most car washes use forced air to dry cars, no towel drying and no labor.
Here, drying agent or wax (natural or synthetic) is used to create a high surface contact angle that prevents the water from sheeting – spreading out over the surface and harder to dry.
“my top wash” presoak 1, presoak 2, hp rinse, lo ph foam polish, hp rinse, medium pressure teflon sealer wax, spot free rinse and blowdry.
This could be pre-soak (high pH), foam polish (low pH), high pressure wash, low pressure wax (DB, Rain-X, etc. are typically low pH), spot free rinse and air dry.
Puddles occur because a liquid with a high surface tension (hard water) pulls more strongly on the surrounding liquid than one with a low surface tension (soft water).
The phenomenon is seen with tears of wine on glass.
Also those carwash operators that used setting rinse years ago mostly wiped up excess water with towels. Otherwise, hard water tends to leave spots.
For example, dishwasher rinse aid contains special surfactants that prevent drops from forming so that water drains from the surfaces in thin sheets rather than forming droplets.
Mr. Clean Auto Dry Car Wash system uses such special surfactants. Wash car, rinse and let air dry. No wiping.
Today, most car washes use forced air to dry cars, no towel drying and no labor.
Here, drying agent or wax (natural or synthetic) is used to create a high surface contact angle that prevents the water from sheeting – spreading out over the surface and harder to dry.
“my top wash” presoak 1, presoak 2, hp rinse, lo ph foam polish, hp rinse, medium pressure teflon sealer wax, spot free rinse and blowdry.
This could be pre-soak (high pH), foam polish (low pH), high pressure wash, low pressure wax (DB, Rain-X, etc. are typically low pH), spot free rinse and air dry.
I don't think you can compare tears of wine to what happens on the surface of a vehicle in regards to rinsing with hard or tap water. Wikipedia states "When you swirl your wine you create a thin film of wine on the surface of the glass. As the alcohol in this mixture evaporates (creating wine aromas), the leftover water-wine mix collects on the sides of the glass creating droplets that fall back into the glass. By the way, if you have a closed bottle of wine and you shake it, you’ll notice that this phenomenon doesn’t occur! This is because no evaporation is happening. Evaporation is the key to why wine tears appear."
So what happens with wine tears is related to the evaporation of alcohol than hardness. Soft water reduces surface tension which creates puddles which do not assist in effective rinsing. Hard water increases surface tension which helps rinse detergents off the surface. In the end, what is important is whether the operator is satisfied with the results. Most chemical experts recommend rinsing with hard or tap water followed by spot free to prevent spotting that could be caused by the remaining water on the surface.
So what happens with wine tears is related to the evaporation of alcohol than hardness. Soft water reduces surface tension which creates puddles which do not assist in effective rinsing. Hard water increases surface tension which helps rinse detergents off the surface. In the end, what is important is whether the operator is satisfied with the results. Most chemical experts recommend rinsing with hard or tap water followed by spot free to prevent spotting that could be caused by the remaining water on the surface.
Jeff_L
Well-known member
I HP rinse with soft water before my SF goes on. If I dont, the sealant doesn't get washed off with SF only and will dry with residue. I don't like having to kick on the pump one more time and spend another cycle going around the vehicle, but it's the only way I've been able to produce good looking cars so far.
robert roman
Bob Roman
Forget tears of wine illustration.
What happens when you apply a drop of alcohol to a painted panel or pane of glass that is sheeted with water? It’s not hardness that causes "evacuation" of area.
Maybe this will help, excerpt from an article I did several years ago.
Carwash operators protect vehicles with spray-on, hand or machine applied wax and paint sealants (extended protection).
Natural and synthetic wax that is layered on by hand and machine provides gloss, shine, smoothness and a sacrificial barrier that traps dirt and is removed during washing.
Spray-on or online products applied in a wash-bay work primarily by interfering with negatively charged water molecules tendency to attach to vehicle surface.
Formation of negatively charged water drops happens whenever water is sprayed.
Tiny water drops that form near waterfalls or through operational spray (i.e. fountain, carwash arches, etc.) or even splashing water by hand carry a negative electrical charge.
Falling water drop is shaped like a pear – thick part down, narrow tail up. As drop falls, pieces tear off from tail to form many smaller drops. As this happens, droplets take away portion of electron charge from big drop.
This happens because electrons try to distribute on a surface proportionally to angle of surface and their number will be much higher in acute angles and convexities than on surface.
As big water drop falls, it can acquire other sized droplets which tear off from other big drops. Smaller droplets have less velocity and are absorbed by bigger drop on its way down and give up their mass and charge to it.
As big drop increases in volume, it becomes even bigger and due to that it forms a tail and can extract negatively charged droplets.
When a water drop and any air pollution absorbed on the way down strikes a surface, what happens next depends on the contact angle the drop makes with surface.
A contact angle of zero degrees would result in a complete wetting of surface. An angle of 180 degrees would result in complete repulsion of the liquid by the surface.
Water has a small contact angle on hydrophilic surfaces like window glass (5 to 25 degrees) and larger angle on hydrophobic surfaces like silicon (70 degrees) and polymer (100 degrees), Rain-X and carnauba are greater.
This is why operators apply drying aid and spray wax containing these substances. Negative charge they impart to surface repels water molecules. Visual effect is water beads-up and rolls off the car. Paint sealant works similarly.
First, a positively charged surface is created by applying a chemical and then negatively-charged polymer or Teflon infused substance is applied which sticks to positive surface. The longevity of sealant is a function of oxidization, dirt and wind abrasion, UV and washing.
Thus, protection that operators sell motorist online is a result of the modification of surfaces by the manipulation of the electrical charge on surfaces.
What happens when you apply a drop of alcohol to a painted panel or pane of glass that is sheeted with water? It’s not hardness that causes "evacuation" of area.
Maybe this will help, excerpt from an article I did several years ago.
Carwash operators protect vehicles with spray-on, hand or machine applied wax and paint sealants (extended protection).
Natural and synthetic wax that is layered on by hand and machine provides gloss, shine, smoothness and a sacrificial barrier that traps dirt and is removed during washing.
Spray-on or online products applied in a wash-bay work primarily by interfering with negatively charged water molecules tendency to attach to vehicle surface.
Formation of negatively charged water drops happens whenever water is sprayed.
Tiny water drops that form near waterfalls or through operational spray (i.e. fountain, carwash arches, etc.) or even splashing water by hand carry a negative electrical charge.
Falling water drop is shaped like a pear – thick part down, narrow tail up. As drop falls, pieces tear off from tail to form many smaller drops. As this happens, droplets take away portion of electron charge from big drop.
This happens because electrons try to distribute on a surface proportionally to angle of surface and their number will be much higher in acute angles and convexities than on surface.
As big water drop falls, it can acquire other sized droplets which tear off from other big drops. Smaller droplets have less velocity and are absorbed by bigger drop on its way down and give up their mass and charge to it.
As big drop increases in volume, it becomes even bigger and due to that it forms a tail and can extract negatively charged droplets.
When a water drop and any air pollution absorbed on the way down strikes a surface, what happens next depends on the contact angle the drop makes with surface.
A contact angle of zero degrees would result in a complete wetting of surface. An angle of 180 degrees would result in complete repulsion of the liquid by the surface.
Water has a small contact angle on hydrophilic surfaces like window glass (5 to 25 degrees) and larger angle on hydrophobic surfaces like silicon (70 degrees) and polymer (100 degrees), Rain-X and carnauba are greater.
This is why operators apply drying aid and spray wax containing these substances. Negative charge they impart to surface repels water molecules. Visual effect is water beads-up and rolls off the car. Paint sealant works similarly.
First, a positively charged surface is created by applying a chemical and then negatively-charged polymer or Teflon infused substance is applied which sticks to positive surface. The longevity of sealant is a function of oxidization, dirt and wind abrasion, UV and washing.
Thus, protection that operators sell motorist online is a result of the modification of surfaces by the manipulation of the electrical charge on surfaces.
That is a rather lengthy discussion on how sealants and drying agents work. While those products definitely play a role in drying the vehicle I thought we were discussing the sequence for rinsing in which case the most accepted way is to rinse with hard or tap water followed by spot free.
