Swirl marks

[Lofty]

I have a 6 month old conveyerised wash in Australia. We use Macneil equipment using the Envirosoft foam. We have infrequent issues with customers complaining the car wash has caused paint swirl marks on their duco. Not surprisingly, every instance of this is black paint. The nature of the swirl marks clearly proves that the marks have not been caused by the car wash however I fully agree the marks have been exposed by the car wash. The first thing the customer says is they weren't there before, which actually means they weren't visible before. My query is why does the car wash expose pre existing swirl marks? My assumption is that during the cleaning process, we are removing any wax which has been used to disguise prior swirl marks. Is it the detergent (we use Ecolab 3692) or the friction which removes the wax? Am I correct with my assumptions and are there any solutions to this issue?
Also, I have done a lot of internet searching on this and most information I can find lists automatic car washes as one of the major causes of this issue. I think this is a very bad generalisation to lump ALL automatic car washes in the same basket and would question why there are no posts to explain why not all car washes are the same? Or does the industry agree we do cause swirl marks?

 

[JMMUSTANG]

Make sure that you have a lubricated soap (not as a presoak) going to all your brushes.
I don't know about your soap (presoak) you're using but make sure it is not stripping the wax/clearcoat before the car gets to your brush units.
Ask your distributor for ideas too.

 

[rph9168]

A lot depends on how the swirl marks were covered up. The reality is that poor quality detail work will cause swirls on any vehicle but dark finishes reveal the problem a lot sooner than light ones. I have seen swirls on brand new vehicles on a dealers lot that were caused by poor prep work done at their dealership.

Most swirl mark removers are definitely not permanent fixes that can be removed in very few washes. Most decent presoaks will even strip some waxes slightly so after several washes the finish will eventually be stripped of any waxes or swirl removers. Paint sealants should last a little longer but eventually they too will be removed.

There are only two solutions. The customer needs to find a detailing professional to permanently remove the swirls or they can apply a coat of wax to cover the swirls up.

 

[JMMUSTANG]

RPH I agree if the detail is bad the car needs to be re waxed.
But if he does not have a consisted flow of lubricated soap going to his brushes that too can cause swirl marks.

 

[soapy]

I have used the BLue Coral 3692 presoak for several years in my touchless automatics. I have never seen it strip wax off any car including mine that I watch closely. The 3692 is a high ph presoak designed for a touchless wash process. I doubt that it has the lubrication that you are looking for in a friction wash. One thing I have found out is that many black cars are not a 2 step clear coat process. They are still the single stage paint from the past and are softer and show scratches easier. Car companies do this to reduce the orange peel effect that a clear coat over black would show. Blue coral makes soaps that have a higher lubricity for friction washes, I would start by going to a higher lubrication soap. Foam washing materials require a higher grade of lubrication. When going through your wash do you ever hear the foam material squeeking against the car? If you do that is a sign of not enough lubrication.

 

[rph9168]

There are very few vehicles today that do not have clear coat finishes. Most of the single stage painted vehicles today are on the high end - mostly foreign models. There are almost no domestic vehicles that are single stage paint jobs. Even since the late 80's clear coating has almost become the standard for OEM's because they enhance the color and maintain their shine much longer than a single stage paint job. The good news is modern clear coats are harder and last much longer than traditional paint jobs. The bad news is that swirl marks and scratches are harder to get out.

Any detergent will remove some wax during the wash because they have cleaning agents that cannot discriminate between soils and waxes. Some are more gentle - usually those designed for friction washes - but they all remove some wax or sealant.

Waxes and sealants are also removed or damaged by natural and man made elements like air pollution, acid rain, rain, temperature, dew and sunshine. How long a wax job lasts depends on such things as how much exposure it gets to the sun, whether it is kept under cover in a garage or carport, how often it is exposed to precipitation and how often it is washed. If you apply some of the better sealants and super sealants as well as some of the better drying agents during the wash they will enhance the shine and protection short term.

 

[JMMUSTANG]

Rph:

"Most of the single stage painted vehicles today are on the high end - mostly foreign models. There are almost no domestic vehicles that are single stage paint jobs."

He's from Australia. Probably a fair amount of foreign cars there.

"If you apply some of the better sealants and super sealants as well as some of the better drying agents during the wash they will enhance the shine and protection short term.

I agree 100%.

Soapy:

"I have used the BLue Coral 3692 presoak for several years in my touchless automatics. I have never seen it strip wax off any car including mine that I watch closely."

How long is your presoak on the car before it gets rinsed off?
That might also be his problem, if it's staying on the car to long. Just a thought.

 

[Lofty]

Thanks guys for this interaction. Vehicles I've currently identified the problem with are a mix of local and imported cars. I know they all have clear coat. A bit more detail on the wash process. We have a warm climate so the first stage of the wash is a cool down rinse. We then apply the 3692 as a presoak followed by first top brush. At the same time we do the Wheel Boss wheel clean followed by 9 nozzle HP side blaster, which covers the whole side of car. We then move into the wraps and low side washers followed by Blu Wave HP profiler, second top brush and high side brushes and then through the wax and rinse process. We are putting out bucket loads of brush lube. All brushes are having MA3 mitter lube applied the whole time. I don't believe it's lack of lube. Soapy, I'm the same, I've been touchless washing with very high PH for years without seeing anything like this. At the finishing end Ecolab have us using Velocity as a drying agent followed by Rain X at the end. The guy from Macneil said he had never seen this before. We do seem to finish up with a very "waxy" finish. Could this be exaggerating the problem? It's terrific having you guys to bounce these ideas around with.

 

[soapy]

My last black Lexus was a single stage paint. I read that he was from Australia and I did not assume that they had the same environmental laws for paint as the USA. I currently use Velocity on one wash package and Rain X on my premium wash. I have always been told that Rain X should be applied on its own and not with Velocity. I doubt the application of either of them has anything to do with showing scratches. If anything they should help hide them. The other thing that comes to mind is the amount of pressure on your side wraps. You mention that your first process is to cool the car down. If you are applying the 3692 during this cool down portion the heat of the car may actually increase the power of the presoak. At my washes if it is over 90 degrees F and a car pulls in it gets a prespray of cool soft water before any chemical hits the car. Do you notice more of these complaints when it is extremly hot?

 

[Earl Weiss]

RPH I agree if the detail is bad the car needs to be re waxed.
But if he does not have a consisted flow of lubricated soap going to his brushes that too can cause swirl marks.

Brushes do not contact the car in a "Swirl" pattern. If anything they wopuld leave lines. The fact that it is a swirl means it was not caused by the brushes.

 

[Earl Weiss]

See this:
http://talkcarwash.com/forums/8-detailing-talk/topics/2034-how-does-spider-web-happen

Wax can hide the swirl and spider webbing, but when washed of, say by a car wash they will reappear. This may be you issue.

 

[Lofty]

Earl, you are correct, I understand the brushes are not the cause of the swirl marks but what I'm trying to understand is what part of our wash process reveals the existing swirl marks. The BMW I noticed last week I could see the swirls as the vehicle entered the tunnel. I knew they were not visible previously.

 

[Lofty]

OK so I've read all the detailed explanations about swirls or spider webs. Can I deduce from all of this that it is most likely our presoak has removed the disguising wax? If yes, this paints our industry into a bit of a black hole. Owners say, when I wash at home they weren't there. I agree they weren't visible but they were there previously. What explanation would you give to your client as to why our soap strips the wax but their bottle of home detergent does not? I'm reluctant to say our soap is much stronger. The other question mark I have is that if the soap is the cause of wax stripping, why does this not occur in a touchless wash?

 

[Earl Weiss]

1. Your pre soak and other cleaners may be the culprit.
2. The marks would be hidden by the dirt and revealed when the car is clean.

 

[rph9168]

Wax is not intended to last a long time. Any time a vehicle is washed in any manner it will remove a small amount of wax. Earl makes a good point. When you wash the vehicle it will often reveal swirls or scratches that may have been hidden under soils on the surface.

 

[JMMUSTANG]

"What explanation would you give to your client as to why our soap strips the wax but their bottle of home detergent does not? I'm reluctant to say our soap is much stronger."

Home detergents definitely strip wax off the cars.
Plus washing by hand does not take all the micro dirt off the finish thereby leaving it on the car for the owner to wipe it into the surface causing more disturbances in the cars surface.
If you don't already why don't you try applying a triple foam polymer before your final mitter.

 

[Washmee]

Black cars are a PIA. As are the owners of many black cars. I tell customers who own them that the only way to ensure that the finish looks good is to hand wax them 3-4 times per year.

 

[pitzerwm]

I think that I would just say "its obvious that my wash didn't cause these, I have no idea where they came from".

 

[rph9168]

Frequent hand waxing with a light duty polish would cover up the most of the swirls except for the really deep ones. A good detailer should be able to remove most of them depending on the condition of the clear coat and the depth of the swirls.

 

[Lofty]

Thank you everyone. I think I have enough information from this to create a suitable response for customers. Bill I most definitely don't agree with your bad luck, not me,I don't care attitude. I don't think this does a business or the industry any good. The purpose of starting this thread was to come up with a rational explanation why they had not seen these marks previously and why have we revealed them. I always knew we didn't cause the swirls.The combined responses from everyone has given me enough information to confidently explain the above to a client. Thank you all again.