Testing dilution rates?

[Eric H]

I am trying a new powdered chemical for my high pressure soap, Zep Rojo. I bought a 35# pail to try out. The instruction state "mix 1/2# to 1 gallon of water then apply at 4-6 oz per gallon". So, 35# will make 70 gallons of concentrate. I tried the product thru a hydrominder with a red tip (14:1) and then moved to black tip (6:1). The product seems to be cleaning well but the foam show was not acceptable to me, I like lots of foam on my High pressure soap, so I added some foam brush soap by adding it thru a dual tip hydrominder. The show looks better but I think it can be improved BUT I want to test the concentration of the soap before I continue to make changes. I asked the soap rep to come out and do a titration but he cannot do it because the titrate turns red and the product is already red.
SO, how do I test the chemical for the correct dilution? I had another rep do a test by using volume but I do not know how to do that myself. Any help here would be appreciated.

BTW: feel free to recommend a product that may be better. I am considering
powdered products To reduce my costs further. I am currently paying $350 for a 55gal at 8:1 (black)and $250 plus shipping for a 20 gal @ 8:1(light beige). The Rojo will cost $138 to make 70 gal if I can confirm that the dilution rate is in the proper range.

 

[MEP001]

I worry less about titrating chemicals than I do just getting them strong enough to do the job. If I were to use the automatic presoak at its recommended titration, it wouldn't get anything clean at all.

I'm not very familiar with Zep powdered products, but I do know there are some that clean well and give a very good show and others that have less foaming agents because they're mainly used in industrial cleaning applications where they don't care about its foaming properties. I'll ask around and see what people are using here that I've seen work very well.

 

[mac]

Sounds like you have stumbled across a bumbling soap salesman. If this guy can not do this simple test I wouldn't reward him with more orders. Here's how I do a dilution test:
1. Make sure the mixing tank is full. Just pull down the float and let go.
2. Turn off the water supply to that tank.
3. Get one or two gallon containers and siphon your mixed solution into them.
4. Have a graduated container (we called them beakers in high school chemistry) close by and fill near the top with the chemical to be tested, and record the liquid level.
5. Put the chemical fill line from the Hydrominder into this beaker.
6. Open the water supply to the mixing tank and let it fill.
7. Replace the chemical fill line back where you took it from.
8. Record the lower level in the beaker.
9. You now know the ammount of product used for either one or two gallons. Most graduated cylinders and marked in milliliters or ml. There are 30 ml per liquid ounce. Say you used 90 ml for the test, or 3 ounces. If you used a 2 gallon sample you used 3 oz of product for 256 oz of mixed solution. That's a dilution ratio of about 85 to 1.

 

[Whale of a Wash]

I have used the zep before and are good products. I have never been on their powder side, but not sure you should be mixing in your own soap to get results. Zep did have a sudsing agent they sold to increase show that i used with their liquid. Have you thought about the blendco guys, i really like it for the touchless and cleans with tons of show in the SS.

 

[Mr.Aap]

I am trying a new powdered chemical for my high pressure soap, Zep Rojo. I bought a 35# pail to try out. The instruction state "mix 1/2# to 1 gallon of water then apply at 4-6 oz per gallon". So, 35# will make 70 gallons of concentrate. I tried the product thru a hydrominder with a red tip (14:1) and then moved to black tip (6:1). The product seems to be cleaning well but the foam show was not acceptable to me, I like lots of foam on my High pressure soap, so I added some foam brush soap by adding it thru a dual tip hydrominder. The show looks better but I think it can be improved BUT I want to test the concentration of the soap before I continue to make changes. I asked the soap rep to come out and do a titration but he cannot do it because the titrate turns red and the product is already red.
SO, how do I test the chemical for the correct dilution? I had another rep do a test by using volume but I do not know how to do that myself. Any help here would be appreciated.

BTW: feel free to recommend a product that may be better. I am considering
powdered products To reduce my costs further. I am currently paying $350 for a 55gal at 8:1 (black)and $250 plus shipping for a 20 gal @ 8:1(light beige). The Rojo will cost $138 to make 70 gal if I can confirm that the dilution rate is in the proper range.

It should not be red out of the wand....Tell him to get his lazy ass out there and check it.....And make sure you are dealing with a rep that not only sells to car washes but actually knows the back room and how to set one up (Chemically).....Also if you want to stay with powders ask him about ZEP 4358.....

 

[MEP001]

Also if you want to stay with powders ask him about ZEP 4358.....

That's what the guys I know who still use Zep are using. It's strong and foamy enough to be used as a presoak.

 

[Mr.Aap]

That's what the guys I know who still use Zep are using. It's strong and foamy enough to be used as a presoak.

Good Product 100% active....No fillers.....

 

[Eric H]

Rojo is the new environmentally safe equivalent to 4358.

 

[Mr.Aap]

I would still go with the 4358 if you want to stay with a powder....If you want to try a liquid try XT 1398 puts on a nice show up to 1 to 700-1000...I bet the ROJO is Phosphate free.....

 

[Eric H]

It is Phosphate free.
Thanks for the info. I will check on the 4358 and XT1398.

 

[KwikClean]

I agree with Mac on the flow testing side of things to figure out a dilution ratio. I'm just wondering, if you're "into" powder products, why not sniff around Blendco? I know they have done a really good job at a system that self mixes itself. Why not have the cost savings of powdered chemicals without all the hassle and guessing? I can say this because I have 2 express washes, and use their TV Prep soap in both. Great show, decent cleaning, even though I just use the prep soap for the customers. The stuff lasts a while even though it comes in a 6 gallon pail. I use about 2-3mL per minute and a very neg liable amount of powder.

Just some insight

 

[mac]

KwikClean, as a former Blendco distributor I can tell you why everyone doesn't use their stuff. First off, when set up correctly, it does clean well and mostly eliminates the use of drums. I had three issues with it, First their rep who initially showed me how to set the stuff up didn't know what he was doing. So I set up a lot of customers and then lost a lot because I had them set way too strong. Their cost went through the roof. If your rep doesn't seem real confident on what he's doing, be careful.Their next rep while slightly more informed on the set up process went behind my back and proceeded to take away a couple of customers from me. The other issues were the powder eventually settled out of solution and formed clumps in all the supply lines, so we had to go back about once a year and replace the lines. Cost was always an issue. They are proud of their products and it's the most expensive line out there. You should insist that your rep do a cost analysis of every product you have online. He must be able to show you your cost per car for a tunnell or automatic, or per minute for self serve use. Maybe you've heard how the economy is slow? To some operators that makes a big difference. I haven't dealt with their newest mixing drums, but the older ones HAD to be checked and calibrated 2 to 3 times per year. Otherwise the final product was too weak or too strong. Nothing in life is simple it seems.

 

[Eric H]

Sounds like you have stumbled across a bumbling soap salesman. If this guy can not do this simple test I wouldn't reward him with more orders. Here's how I do a dilution test:
1. Make sure the mixing tank is full. Just pull down the float and let go.
2. Turn off the water supply to that tank.
3. Get one or two gallon containers and siphon your mixed solution into them.
4. Have a graduated container (we called them beakers in high school chemistry) close by and fill near the top with the chemical to be tested, and record the liquid level.
5. Put the chemical fill line from the Hydrominder into this beaker.
6. Open the water supply to the mixing tank and let it fill.
7. Replace the chemical fill line back where you took it from.
8. Record the lower level in the beaker.
9. You now know the ammount of product used for either one or two gallons. Most graduated cylinders and marked in milliliters or ml. There are 30 ml per liquid ounce. Say you used 90 ml for the test, or 3 ounces. If you used a 2 gallon sample you used 3 oz of product for 256 oz of mixed solution. That's a dilution ratio of about 85 to 1.

OK, but how do I figure the final dilution in the bay? The soap is diluted a second time as it enters the Cat pump.

 

[rph9168]

To find out the dilution rate in the bay you would need to either know the stated dilution rate for the pump (which is often an "iffy" figure) or to titrate in the bay.

 

[mac]

Ok, we're getting somewhere. If you are comfortable with getting the ratio for the mixing tank let's start there. Probably the easiest way to do this (mind you there may be an easier way, but without seeing your exact setup this will have to do) is to take your graduated cylinder and fill it with the mixed solution. You will need to temporarily replumb the line from the soap tank that goes to that bay, and have that hose go into your beaker. Get a known container, say a 5 gallon bucket, and run the bay till it's full. Then see how much mixed solution you used. Hope this helps.

 

[KwikClean]

KwikClean, as a former Blendco distributor I can tell you why everyone doesn't use their stuff. First off, when set up correctly, it does clean well and mostly eliminates the use of drums. I had three issues with it, First their rep who initially showed me how to set the stuff up didn't know what he was doing. So I set up a lot of customers and then lost a lot because I had them set way too strong. Their cost went through the roof. If your rep doesn't seem real confident on what he's doing, be careful.Their next rep while slightly more informed on the set up process went behind my back and proceeded to take away a couple of customers from me. The other issues were the powder eventually settled out of solution and formed clumps in all the supply lines, so we had to go back about once a year and replace the lines. Cost was always an issue. They are proud of their products and it's the most expensive line out there. You should insist that your rep do a cost analysis of every product you have online. He must be able to show you your cost per car for a tunnell or automatic, or per minute for self serve use. Maybe you've heard how the economy is slow? To some operators that makes a big difference. I haven't dealt with their newest mixing drums, but the older ones HAD to be checked and calibrated 2 to 3 times per year. Otherwise the final product was too weak or too strong. Nothing in life is simple it seems.

Thanks for the input. I must have the "newer" mixing tanks, because I've had one tank for almost a year and the other about 7 months. Their hasn't been any consistency issues as far as the strength goes. My rep did an initial cost per car upon set up, and since then, about once a month, he will give me an updated cost per, which usually stays the same unless I tell him to make an adjustment or when it goes from extremely hot temperatures in the summer, to cold cold in the winter. As far as the powder settling my lines, haven't had an issue with that at either location. Maybe they have improved their powder since then, dunno.

 

[rph9168]

A simple volumetric test is easy to do. You need to be able to do one yourself. It is a good way for you to better understand use cost and to verify the results you have been given by your rep. A good rep will be happy to show you how to do it or at least have you help them when they do the draws.