Trough heat comments welcomed

[Buzzie8]

I probably should have posted this earlier. I spent the day upgrading my trough heat in my newer wash today. I am emulating the trough heat that my older wash has because it is pretty much problem free. My newer wash had the trough heat circuit tied into the floor heat boiler. I separated the trough heat circuit from the floor heat circuit. I used a new 6 gallon electric water heater, a Bell and Gossett pump, and plumbed the old circuit through the new smaller water heater. I considered plumbing my heated presoak through but the job would have been much more difficult and I know this new system works well in a six bay SS set up. I still need to do the wiring and install the thermostat tomorrow. I had lots and lots of freeze ups with my newer wash (which I am pretty sure was due to it being tied into the floor heat). I am hoping all this goes away this winter!! I am friends with the guy who built my old wash and he said he has built over 30 washes this way and it has been reliable in all.

 

[car washing systems inc]

The way you are doing it is just how we do it. As for the wiring i run the power to the heater and then a 120v to a t stat in the trough run out to the farthest bay to controll the circulator. T stat is set between 40-45 and we have no problems. Just make sure you remove all air in the system

 

[Buzzie8]

The way you are doing it is just how we do it. As for the wiring i run the power to the heater and then a 120v to a t stat in the trough run out to the farthest bay to controll the circulator. T stat is set between 40-45 and we have no problems. Just make sure you remove all air in the system

How do you run your thermostat that far away? Do they make leads that are 75 or 100' long? Also, what is the best way to bleed the air out of the lines?

 

[washnvac]

Trough heat should not be run with floor heat, as you will want to run the trough when you are not running floor heat. I bought a wash hooked up this way, and immediately changed it to a separate heater. Someone's great idea to save a couple hundred bucks--I guess.

You need to have a "high" fill point to get air out. Fill system, turn on circulator, and release air at fill point.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

I just weep warm water, don't have to buy or install anything.

 

[Buzzie8]

Trough heat should not be run with floor heat, as you will want to run the trough when you are not running floor heat. I bought a wash hooked up this way, and immediately changed it to a separate heater. Someone's great idea to save a couple hundred bucks--I guess.

You need to have a "high" fill point to get air out. Fill system, turn on circulator, and release air at fill point.

HMMM? I really do not want to go up into the trough, cut the plex, and create a "high" fill point. There must be an easier way to bleed air out of the system. Right now I have a "high" fill point in the equipment room, but it is still below all the plex up in the trough.

 

[soapy]

You can install a air seperator in line for little cost. Most floor heat systems have them. I heat my troughs with a heavy duty electric heat cable. I installed one over 15 years ago and all I have to do is plug it in each year. I use Raytheon Winter guard wet heat cable. I use them at all my washes and have never had any problem with them.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I just weep warm water, don't have to buy or install anything.

I weep warm water as well, but it is not warm enough for the days when it gets below 20 or so.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have an 8 bay with a similar system, but use a 40 gallon gas water heater.

I am surprised that a 6 gallon heater will provide enough reserve to heat the water enough. (I guess it depends how cold it gets.) There are 2 bays on one side of the equipment room and 6 on the other so their are 2 seperate loops, When the water returns from the 6 bay side it has lost most of it's warmth. I don't think a 6 gallon heater would raise the temp enough on really cold days.

FWIW the circulating pump is on the return side. I also have an expansion tank.

The fill is on the supply side of the pump so i added an anti freeze solution and it sucks it in. Air can escape thru this same line as I do this.

 

[Reds]

i must be lucky. My trough is heated with the floor heat. I do not run the floor heat tsat set to a high temp. - only what's needed. In 6 years I have never froze up except when my weep shut off for some reason - usually my fault. Lots of subzero days. My trough is well insulated. this thread has me thinking about changing to Winterguard Wet before I have a problem.

 

[car washing systems inc]

How do you run your thermostat that far away? Do they make leads that are 75 or 100' long? Also, what is the best way to bleed the air out of the lines?

We run bx cable then you can put your t-stat anywhere you would like just make sure you are not to close to your heat tube. To blead the air we use a pump and install 2 boiler drains one to fill and the other to purge air back in to a bucket.

 

[torquewrench]

I solved my trough freeze ups for under 300 bucks. I have a outside wood boiler that heats all the wash water and floor heat. I just tapped into boiler water and put a loop all the way thru the trough. never had a problem since and doesn't really cost me a penny more sine the boiler is running anyway.

 

[Jeff_L]

Hmm...might be costly and/or ineffective, but has anyone tried using an electric floor heating mat like you would put in your house under the tile floor? Just a thought, I never tried it, nor do I know if it's cost prohibitive. However, if someone is looking for ideas, I thought I'd throw one out there.

 

[soapy]

The heat cable is similar to the electric mat. The cable I use is self regualting for temp and provides 6 watts of heat per foot. My trough is 6 inch PVC pipe uninsulated with PVC electrical boxes for the manifold setups.The heat cable has always worked for me. I have not priced it in a while but as I recall the cost per wash was around $300.

 

[Jeff_L]

I typically don't have an issue with my lines freezing up, my anti-freeze system for my foaming brush provides a nice side effect of having a couple of warm hoses in the trough to which I bundled all the hoses up to for warmth. The challenge I have is with the foam generators for the brushes, the hoses go to a manifold beneath them and thus they don't stay unfrozen. I wonder if I could wrap some heat cable around those generators without melting them?

 

[Buzzie8]

We run bx cable then you can put your t-stat anywhere you would like just make sure you are not to close to your heat tube. To blead the air we use a pump and install 2 boiler drains one to fill and the other to purge air back in to a bucket.

Thanks for all your input. Can you let me know what thermostat you have been using. I have a white-rodgers that I had left over when I replaced it with a weep-mizer. It has a remote bulb but it is only about 12 feet long, not near long enough to place in trough. I was thinking that I could just put it outside and the unit would run whenever outside temp reached freezing. Probably not too efficient to do it this way however. I like your idea but can't seem to find a thermostat that will work (on Grainger at least).

 

[car washing systems inc]

Thanks for all your input. Can you let me know what thermostat you have been using. I have a white-rodgers that I had left over when I replaced it with a weep-mizer. It has a remote bulb but it is only about 12 feet long, not near long enough to place in trough. I was thinking that I could just put it outside and the unit would run whenever outside temp reached freezing. Probably not too efficient to do it this way however. I like your idea but can't seem to find a thermostat that will work (on Grainger at least).

I no grainger has them let me try to find the number for you. I dont think you want to run the unit on outside air temp because then when it is freezing it would just keep heating the trough insted of just keeping the it at 40-45
Grainger # 2E834 This should work they dont have the same one that we use but as long as you trough is above freezing thats all that counts.

 

[mjc3333]

The trough we currently have been using for the past 15 years was built out of simple sections of 1/2 inch plywood on the floor and the two sides 12" X 12" X 12". We then lined the floor, and walls with 2 inch blue foam board. We ran regular pex floor heat lines with sections of finned copper at the center of each bay (6), back to a 12 gallon electric hot water heater with a small B&G pump. Filled the lines and the hot water heater with the same mixture as the floor heat (good for about -20 degrees just in case). Placed all of the high pressure and low pressure hoses in the "boxed trough" and covered the top with sections of the 2 inch blue foam board. It has never been frozen once. With the trough being totally insulated on all four sides, the cost to run the electric water heater is next to nothing. We set the water heater at its lowest setting about 70 degrees. The other advantage is if a high pressure gun freezes out in the bay, it is never frozen up in the trough. No more having to take down all of the hose from the pump room to the gun. Just take the boom hose down, take the gun and hose down, unfreeze, and your back in business in minutes not hours.

 

[Buzzie8]

MJC333, your post stirred my curiosity. Let me tell you why. I have two washes that are located about 1 mile apart from each other. They are both equipped with weep guns, weep mizers, insulated troughs, etc.. The only difference between the two was that my older wash had it's own separate water heater and therefore it operated completely independent of the floor heat. My newer wash, while being identical in design, had the trough heated only while the floor heat was circulating. I never (that I know of) had a high pressure function freeze on my older wash including boom hoses and wands. My newer wash had multitudes of freezes on the boom hoses and wands. My conclusion from this is that if I isolate the circuit in the trough and heat it the same way I should have the same experience as my older wash? If your boom hoses and wands are freezing maybe it is a result of what is going on up in the trough and you do not know it. My feeble mind is assuming that the warmer I can keep the water by the time it gets to the boom arm and wand, the less likely I will have a freeze problem.

 

[mjc3333]

I agree 100%. Before I had the enclosed heated trough, I had my hoses wrapped in regular insulation without any heat protection at all. This setup was good for nothing!! Every time the temps got below 25 degrees F everything would freeze solid except for the high pressure hoses. I was lucky if they lasted down to 20 degrees F. Then randomly, they would freeze at will.