Tunnel Manufacturers

[Buggyworks II]

I'm currently managing a car wash in a remote location in Colorado which is in dire need of new tunnel equipment. We're currently a full service operation and looking to move to a flex-serve model to increase volumes and reduce labor. Our tunnel is about 90 feet long and we have a conveyor that is about 80 feet. I'm anticipating that we could do volumes of around 3500 - 4500 cars per month.

We want to introduce friction to produce a better clean but we have a large number of work trucks with ladders, ski racks etc which might cause issues I'm told and may have to have a hybrid model with touch-free so that customers have a choice.

Service & maintenance, installation support and training are very important to us since we are in a remote location - 4 hours from Denver.

I'm wondering if anyone has any advice on equipment manufacturers - who are good, who are not so good given our needs.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Earl Weiss]

You have a couple of issues. 1. What is it about existing equipment that cannot be repaired.

2. I do not know of any mitters that would be good to use with ladders or Ski racks, and Top Brushes are out of the question for sure.

3. You increase your equipment, solution and utility costs dramaticaly if you are going to offer a touch free option.

4. Touch free is tem,permental comapred to friction units.

 

[Earl Weiss]

FWIW my experience with AVW equipment Wrapss, Mitter, Conveyor, side wheels is that it is relatively easy to service and adjust.

 

[Buggyworks II]

Thanks for the reply Earl. In response to your questions:

1. Some of the arches can probably be reconditioned but most of the equipment is really old (14 years or so) and finding parts is challenging and the costs of repairs are adding up

2. Yup, that is an issue! We're touchfree at the moment but it requires a lot of prepping and finishing to get a good end product and the high-labor model is not sustainable in our market. I don't really want to design a tunnel based on "problem-clients" so I'd be interested in how anyone that has friction deals with customers who have ski racks/ladders etc.

3. hmmm

4. Tell me about it! Hence the strong desire to move to friction!!

Thanks again

 

[Chiefs]

I would recommend Hybrid to you as well but a combination of touchless followed by Lammscloth mitters. This material is so heavy when wet that it does not require any agitation and would pose no problems to ladders (provided they can make under the air dryer) or to ski racks. Will it completely cover the tops of SUVs and van's with these accessories No, of course not, but in all my years of car washing I have yet to see anyone get on top of their vehicle to see if its clean. Free of snow and ice, yes, but as clean as the rest of the vehicles? No way.

The idea of offering touch free or friction sounds good in theory, However, to do so would at a minimum require you to have two different pre-soak arches as the vehicle that go through touchless would require a far more concentrated pre-soak applicatiion. Those that get friction would only need 50% less.

Next you would have to invest in a high pressure arch capable of covering the enitre vehicle including fronts and rears and at least 30 HP in high pressure pump stations.

The last stumbling block is the customer. They are coming to you to get a clean, dry, shiny car. They are relying on your knowing your business, putting in the best equipment and delivering a quality car wash. Your employees should be asking customers if they want to upgrade their wash with extra services. Imagine the customer's reaction when your attendant asks, " Sir, would you like a friction wash, a touchless wash or a hybrid wash today?" Is that really the focal point of the discussion that you want you attendant to have with the customer? I guess that would be okay on a slow day. But on a busy day with a line of cars to be washed, you want to keep the line moving. Confusing the customer this way will cost you big time especially on those days.

Lastly, your employees, asking them to perform differnet taks on different vehicles depending on the type of wash they chose is simply problematic. Heck, its hard enoung to get them to do the same thing on every vehicle, nevermind trying to remember what to do differently every time.

An 80' conveyor is plenty of room to put in a Hybrid system.

 

[briteauto]

You may be interested in what Delta Sonic does. They have what they call a "Touch-Less" wash, meaning that thier wash touches the vehicle less than a traditional full friction tunnel.

They do this by using mitters as thier only friction component. They do use a Lammscloth material which they do agitate very slowly in long lazy arcs, but as Bill said, it is so heavy you can just let it hang if you prefer.

There are no side wheels in thier tunnels. The front and sides are cleaned totally frictionless. If you watch a car go through, the fore and aft motion of thier mitters coupled with the heavy weight of the Lammscloth soaked in foam actually clings to the sides of the vehicles, even below the window moulding. Is it as thorough as a side wheel - no, but since they are cleaing the sides with frictionless equipment, this only adds to the overall cleaning power. If there is any film left on the vehicle, it is only on the absolute lowest portion of the vehicle, and is taken care of during the final toweling.

They have locations in NY State in Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse. I believe they may also have some in the midwest. Their locations range from medium to high volume. The medium locations on a slow day run with two attendants. One prep (hp guns only), one towel.

Also - they manufacture their own equipmnet in Buffalo, with the exception of blowers which tend to come from Belanger.

 

[JimmyJaffa]

In Florida we do not get many ski racks, but we sure get our share of roof mounted bicycle racks. And we have two MacNeil Top brushes, and have never had a problem with them on roof attached items (well we did pick up a truck that had a piece of rope tied to it, the rope broke).

 

[Earl Weiss]

Had a guy come thru with a Bike rack and the cloth from the mitter tore it up. I denied liab for the claim since our signs disclaim non factory orgl equip damage. Somehow I find it difficult to believe the mitter cloth won't get caught between the ladders, racks, their mmountings and hold downs. I expect foam from top brushes would break before doing damage to the vehicle, but I thing the foam will wear much quicker.

Main difference between Bike and Ski / ladder racks is that the track that holds the bike runs down the length of the car, but the ski aand ladder mountings are horizonta / across the car.

I was in Delta Sonics back room once. They had one HP pump the size of a mini cooper.

 

[briteauto]

If all of your issues would be with the horizontal portion of the car, then why not install the side wheels and wraps you want, and keep the top "touch free"

You would only need to get your highest concentration solution to the tops of cars with an overhead manifold - no arch even needed. Then you could follow it up later down the tunnel with some zero degree oscillators aimed at the top, which could also be aimed at the front and rear to aid those areas. You would also probably clean a lot better in and around the intracacies of the racks on the car.

You would not have high solution costs, as the whole car would not need to be covered in your highest concentration solution. Additionally, you would not need extensive hp pumps to cover just the tops of vehicles.

If you prep, your front end could even mop/brush the hood and roof if it was absolutely necessary, and if you towel, that would take care of any problems at the other end.

I know this is not common practice, but if you have that many issues with vehicles where both a mitter or a top wheel would not be the best choice, then it you might need a less conventional solution.

 

[briteauto]

Sorry - I didn't finish my thought. You could have the touch free on the tops available when your top wheel is retracted. This would allow you to be full friction for most of your vehicles, yet able to cater to the specialty vehicles, without designing your wash around them. You could leave the hp on for the regular friction wash too, just to add additional cleaning. I would reccomned that the hp be prior to the friction.

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

MCNeil, Sonny, or Motor City or a combo there of.

I would suggest this: Several wraps in normal retract mode, full wraps, half wraps and rocker pannal mounted on the tire brush. I like McNeil & Motor City's new wheel brushes that look like the cam shaft. All can be in retract so the wash can be operated as "touch free" and for an optional up charge you can offer a "power wash" option or "super wash" option (whatever you want to call it). No mitters so you won't have to deal with the ladder rack or ski rack issues. at 3500-4500 CPM you can run a slower chain speed to get a better dwell time for the chemicals to work in leu of the lack of cloth and short tunnel. To decrease labor you must put in gates and a pay station.

Definatley a tire shiner. I like the new Motor city tire shiner (I use a Sonny's). Double Bond or Rain X arch.... no or limited triple foam (to difficult to rinse in short tunnel). I'd consider a belt conveyor so you can gain 20' on the front wheel or a front wheel push (not a fan of these at all) if you need the volume or the prep space or prep arch for more dwell time. This can get to be very important. But front wheel pulls, if not installed right, or the floor is not poured properly are horrible (from what I hear, I never worked one).

Lots of HP rinse arches.

 

[JMMUSTANG]

Ben how would a tire shiner work with a conveyor belt?
If the tires are not rotating.

 

[Earl Weiss]

>>>To decrease labor you must put in gates and a pay station.<<

At 150 cars per day pay stations save nothing. At that volume one guy can easily serve as the Cashier, guide on man and prep guy as well. This ads an uneeded cost.

AFAIAC up to 100 cars per hour a pay station saves nothing. Up to this volume one guy can be the guide on man and cashier. You need 2 pay stations plus one guy to equal that. More than 100 CPH you need 2 guys, so 2 Pay stations will save you one guy, maybe at those hourly rates. BUT, that is his daily rate, not hourly.

 

[Chiefs]

If this is like rocket science for your employees, it will open a Pandora's box. Communicating to customers the myriad of options offered and the time it takes will cost substantial wash volume and revenue on busy days. Getting your greeter to explain the different wash formats and wash packages and getting the customer to make a quick decision takes a person with extraordinary communication skills, extensive training, and motivation. Does that sound like any of your current employees?
The Lammscloth is the perfect answer for you for two reasons. First of all, the very nature of Lammscloth. Its soft, heavy when wet. It requires no oscillation of the top mitter and requires only the slowest rpms of any sides or wraps. Due to its weight, simply pulling the vehicle through is enough to pick up the remaining road film that touchless invariably leaves behind.
We were a full service and totally touchless wash from 1985-1997. We added the Lammscloth mitter, sides and wraps AFTER the touchless wash process in 1997. Several things occured. The amount of hard wiping we had to do at the end and the percentage of re-washes dropped by 99%! It resulted in a 60% reduction in costs of pre-soak and drying agent. Now, the touchless's job was to get the heaviest dirt off vehicles - not completely clean them. Lammscloth's job is identical to the effort expended by having labor at the end to cover up the touchless system's drawbacks - it details the vehicle. Now though you actually have the clean vehicle going into the rinse process so critical to getting a dry vehicle. In turn, this will reduce your manual towel drying by at least 75-80%.
The labor savings of doing a hybrid the right way - touchless first, Lammscloth second will deliver to you a clean, dry, shiny vehicle - safely - nearly every time with a minimum of prepping cannot be beat. This allows you to keep it simple and it will not affect ski or ladder racks. Even if there are sharp edges, the worst things that will happen is that a strip of Lammscloth gets torn off. Better a $15 strip than a ladder rack.
Now to sooth over the transition from touchless to hybrid we did two things First, we placed it after the touchless process, added a flashing sign and promoted it as a Buff N Polish service. Next we placed placards in our hallway (we were full service then). These described the new process to customers and included a sample of Lammscloth. This made overcame almost all objections.

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

Ben how would a tire shiner work with a conveyor belt?
If the tires are not rotating.

You can't. I suggest it only to more room upfront for prep space... the tire shiner wouldn't work in that case, but would with a front wheel drive and have both advantages.

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

Earl,

A flex model can work well with a gate. I have only one gate. My labor today is 18% and I can run as low as 9% at an average $14 per car.

I agree with you if he only wishes to go EE at 100-150 CPD.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Earl,

A flex model can work well with a gate. I have only one gate. My labor today is 18% and I can run as low as 9% at an average $14 per car.

I agree with you if he only wishes to go EE at 100-150 CPD.

<<

I have no doubt it will work and work well. My doubt has to do with the need for this expense at these production rates..

I am not sue how you factor labor rates . I would not calculate labor on overall production since my labor is inflexible up to 100 CPH at the EE portion. I only factor labor based upon the after care volume. My greeter/Cashier/ Loader is not part of the equation. Example: 4 after care guys at $10.00 per hour would need to gnerate $400.00 in revenue for a 10% cost. The Greeter/ Cashier / Loader who made $10.00 per hour if he puts thru 10 CPH on a slow day or 100 CPH on a great hour would skew the numbers as would that factor of the revenue per the after care people.

I can see how after care selections would slow up 21 guy as a greeter if you were doing even say 50 CPH, but at 15-20 CPH? Heck, that is 3-4 minutes a car.

 

[Chiefs]

You mean "lot of HP" Wash "arches" don't you. Or, are you recommending that high pressure arches actually be placed in the rinse area? If so, why would one want to generate such a tremendous amount of misting and overspray in an area where you're applying items like Rain-X and drying agent trying get vehicles to bead up prior to dryers? Also, doesn't that mist inevitably get sucked up by your blower intakes and reduce drying?

 

[Buggyworks II]

Thanks, that's good advice to throw into the pot. Any thoughts on Sonny's equipment?

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

You mean "lot of HP" Wash "arches" don't you. Or, are you recommending that high pressure arches actually be placed in the rinse area? If so, why would one want to generate such a tremendous amount of misting and overspray in an area where you're applying items like Rain-X and drying agent trying get vehicles to bead up prior to dryers? Also, doesn't that mist inevitably get sucked up by your blower intakes and reduce drying?

Bill, My omni's are a little more than 1/2 way down the tunnel, just before the last mitter. I have little problem with misting. I use 3 rain curtians and one halo arch after the last mitter with almost 20' of drip space before the first blower.

He only has 70' to work with...not a lot of room. I know that you like to use HP rinse up front, even at the pre-soak area. For me it works well to rinse off the dirt and the soap. If he is limited in the amount of cloth because of ladder racks & ski racks, he might go with a high HP stripper blower which has a housing well away from the misting or can be separated with a small curtian.

I like Sonny's. My entire tunnel (except one peice of SS arch) is Sonny's.