Using Wind Shield Washer Fluid Vs. Straight Methanol for FB

[2Biz]

Rob't...We're not mixing methanol with gasoline in our ER. Two totally different things.

Copied from Wikipedia....
"Both methanol and ethanol burn at lower temperatures than gasoline, and both are less volatile"

But mixing it with gas changes it up. I'm sure there are chemicals that are very safe by themselves, but when mixed together they can be quite toxic or more flammable. Take Cleanwall and bleach as a good example. Pretty Safe by themselves (If used properly) but mixed together it makes a toxic gas....How about Bleach and vinegar?!?!?!?!?

 

[MEP001]

As far as its toxicity, if it's mixed with foam brush soap and foamed in the bay, someone would have to drink an awful lot of foam to get sick from it. Non-issue IMO.

 

[wellington car wash]

Hi What dilution are you guys using on the foam brush with methanol or WW fluid?

 

[Rudy]

This thread is giving me some concern.

I have a changeover system. When the temp falls through 32F, the FB switches to a Methanol/Soap mix automatically. Only when it gets very, very cold....do I manually change the hydrominder tip.

Anyway, every fall, I purchase a 55 gallon barrel of Methanol, add a 5 gallon pail of soap (designed for foam brush/Meth), and let the system do it's thing.

After reading this thread, you've got me concerned that having a 55 gallon (plastic) barrel inside my equipment room is unwise. We've been running like this over 10 years. Would it be better having the barrel outside the equipment room (and then feed the hydrominder via a tube going through the rear wall)......or even perhaps, using a 15 gallon barrel instead of the 55. My concern there is the increased "handling". We'd probably need to refill several times over winter.

Again, I've had zero issues. Am I reading something more here (in this thread), than I should?

 

[2Biz]

Rudy,

I used Methanol FB and TF soap for a few years and didn’t have any problems. Safety wasn’t the sole purpose for Changing over to a Washer Fluid purge system. But safety was always in the back of my mind? I didn’t have an automatic switchover for the warm days and was wasting too much methanol by leaving the hydrominder set for methanol all winter. It was too much of a pain to switch back and forth. That’s the main reason I switched to Washer Fluid Purge.

About the same time I added an open flame wall heater in case of an electric outage below freezing. I turn it on when temps get down around zero, just in case…. After adding the wall heater, I’m glad I don’t have straight methanol in the ER even though there may be nothing to be worried about… I can’t imagine distributors selling methanol soap if it was so dangerous. I do know some fire marshals and insurance companies don’t allow it. Something to check out if your concerned.

 

[slash007]

I have been trying to decide what to do with my Foam Brush and then came across this thread. I currently have no weep or changeover system for my FB. I did purchase a 55 gallon drum of anti freeze soap a couple of years ago but it hasn't really helped much since by the time I switch over to it, not many people use it after the switch and it doesn't get into all the lines in order to be effective. I really would like for my FB to be operational during the freezing temps, so what is my best bet in order to achieve that? I like the idea of a switch over system and also of a purge. What would be the easiest to setup?

 

[2Biz]

When I used Methanol FB and TF soap, I just switched over before the first freeze and ran it all winter. I didn't have an automatic switchover. When I switched over, I drained the hydrominder tank, then filled with methanol soap. Then purged each hose manually.
That's basically what you'd have to do for it to be effective with your current setup.

Obviously I think using Washer fluid is the easiest! I don't have to do anything now but fill the washer fluid tank.

 

[slash007]

I got it to work last year, but then once it warmed up after a good snow, I didn't switch back and used over half my drum in just 3 days! There are many days that will be above freezing and where it will be very busy, so not switching back is very, very expensive. With your current system, it just blows them out after each use? I think you've mentioned it in another thread, but what kind of system are you using exactly? Was it hard to install? I don't mind adding new equipment to get it working the best way.

 

[Rudy]

You'd need an adjustable Thermostat, a relay or two, two solenoids, a mixing tank for the A/F solution, and a timer.

You'd need to wire it so that when the temperature is below freezing (I set mine at 34F), it closes a relay that opens the A/F solution, and closes the regular F/B solution. This same relay would activate a timer to "purge" A/F soap into the F/B lines. At my wash, it takes about 3 minutes to get a good purge to the farthest bay.

While the temperature is below freezing, the system draws from the A/F solution. When the temperature is above freezing, the stat opens, allowing the solenoids to return to the regular F/B solution. No purging is needed when going from cold to warm....only warm to cold.

Make sense?

 

[soapy]

Over the years I have posted the following formula for freeze points on foam brush soap using methenol. If your final ratio is 10% methenol and 90 water/soap it is good to 25 degrees F, 20% around 15 F, 30% methenol is good to 0 degrees F. You could also use propylene glycol ( RV antifreeze) and foam brush soap and water if you want the safest mixture. You can make your own FB soap by adding your concentrated foam brush soap to either one until you get the foam you desire. Usually 5 to 10 gallons of foam brush soap to 50 gallons of either product. RV antifreeze is usually good down to -50 and can be diluted further but you will need a good propylene glycol tester to figure your final product. You can buy 55 gallon barrels of PG that is un diluted at many chemical supply distributors.

 

[2Biz]

Rudy has the switch-over method covered.

I started a thread a few years ago on using a plc to do the winterizing with Washer Fluid. Its pretty lengthy, but if your interested in learning, this will get you started. There are some links in the thread to download some sample programs I created....Download the Demo Idec Windlogic Software..Its free....And play with it a bit to see if you want to put the time into learning it.

http://www.autocareforum.com/showthread.php?8291-Programmable-Relay-or-PLC

 

[slash007]

Rudy has the switch-over method covered.

I started a thread a few years ago on using a plc to do the winterizing with Washer Fluid. Its pretty lengthy, but if your interested in learning, this will get you started. There are some links in the thread to download some sample programs I created....Download the Demo Idec Windlogic Software..Its free....And play with it a bit to see if you want to put the time into learning it.

http://www.autocareforum.com/showthread.php?8291-Programmable-Relay-or-PLC

What a great thread. Very detailed and informative. Unfortunately it seems a little (ok a lot) above my experiese, so I'll have to weigh my options. I think your setup seems to be by far the best way to go though. I was thinking that even if I had two tanks and it switched over at a set temp, it still might not work as sometimes the temp drops from 34 to below freezing when no one is using it, and if that happens than none of the anti-freeze soap would be in the lines to help.

 

[MEP001]

What a great thread. Very detailed and informative. Unfortunately it seems a little (ok a lot) above my experiese, so I'll have to weigh my options. I think your setup seems to be by far the best way to go though. I was thinking that even if I had two tanks and it switched over at a set temp, it still might not work as sometimes the temp drops from 34 to below freezing when no one is using it, and if that happens than none of the anti-freeze soap would be in the lines to help.

That's why you need something to purge the lines with the antifreeze solution when the temp drops below 34°.

 

[2Biz]

You'd need an adjustable Thermostat, a relay or two, two solenoids, a mixing tank for the A/F solution, and a timer.

You'd need to wire it so that when the temperature is below freezing (I set mine at 34F), it closes a relay that opens the A/F solution, and closes the regular F/B solution. This same relay would activate a timer to "purge" A/F soap into the F/B lines. At my wash, it takes about 3 minutes to get a good purge to the farthest bay.

While the temperature is below freezing, the system draws from the A/F solution. When the temperature is above freezing, the stat opens, allowing the solenoids to return to the regular F/B solution. No purging is needed when going from cold to warm....only warm to cold.

Make sense?

I'm curious more than anything! With the timer that works off a t-stat, are you using it to switch between winter and summer solution before the pump and also energizing the FB solenoids to purge instead of having a totally different pumping system? If you're using the FB solenoids to purge, then I could see the need for additional relays (one for each bay) to isolate the timer input from bay input? Correct? Also what change-over solenoids are you using. 1/2" I assume? Piston or diaphragm?

 

[slash007]

Rudy, would you mind posting pictures of your setup? I could probably set something up like that for now then maybe do the more extensive system in the future.

In the meantime, I am currently switching the chemical hose to the hyrdominder to switch between regular and winter FB. It would be easier if I could have both lines attached and just shut off a valve and open the other when wanting to switch. Would this work?

https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-2108-dual-chemical-kit.aspx

Today it went from below freezing to around 46 degrees for most of the day and then back to below freezing tonight and most of tomorrow, so I just left the winter FB blend attached. They go through it like crazy though and I would probably need several 55 gallon drums to get through the winter, so I really need to start working on a better solution with purge.

 

[2Biz]

Slash,

With that setup from KR, you'll still have the same problem as you do now. Only switching over may be a bit easier. Your still mixing methanol FB soap into regular FB soap further diluting the methanol soap. To switch over the best way, I'd drain the tank, switch over to methanol, then purge each bay manually to get methanol in all the lines. Next best way would be to add the necessary hardware to do all this automatically like Rudy does. It could all be tied right in to the secondary output of your weepmizer for activation. Having your valves on the outputs of 2 mix tanks would be the way to go. That way when you switch over, your flojet gets methanol soap right away and you wouldn't have to drain your single tank for switch over.

What tip do you use for your methanol FB soap? Your further South than me, I used a Beige 8-1 tip and didn't have any problems. Its hard for me to believe you used 1/2 a 55 gallon barrel of soap in just a few days! You must have a busy wash!

 

[slash007]

Your right, it would only save a little bit of time. The way Rudy has it setup is the way to go, I just need to figure out how to do it exactly. I have it set on the beige tip and what happened was that after a good snow it warmed up and cars were lined up all day for at least two days straight. That really took a big chunk out of the Anti -Freeze soap.

Is there a way for me to manually run the FB in each bay from the ER, or do I have to go out to the bays to do it?

 

[Rudy]

I'm going to have to investigate my system closer (I'm at home, and not at the wash). I think I told you something wrong. My system doesn't use solenoids on the solution tanks. Under each tank, there's a dedicated (ARO) diaphragm pump. When the system is in A/F mode, the ARO underneath the methanol solution, pumps. When it warms up, the ARO pump under the regular non-A/F solution, pumps. I DO have solenoids on the air supplies to the two ARO diaphragm pumps....and that's what "controls" which solution flows to the foam brushes.

The ONLY thing in my system that isn't automated....is the changing of the tips (red, beige, black) depending on the outside temperature. Only when it's going to go below 20F....do I even mess with replacing the red with a beige. You've got to remember, that simply changing a tip does not immediately change the freeze point of the solution. So.....when I change to a bigger tip, I also pour a little RV antifreeze into the A/F tank so that it's stronger immediately. I don't have to handle the Methanol that way. It's cheap and easy....and easy means saving money.

It's funny, to see how customers react when the system "changes over". I've seen people in a "panic" say, "Hey, Mister.....I drove into one of your bays, and the Brush started to foam all by itself!".

A check of the thermometer tells me that it's 34F, and getting colder. The system is working just like it should.......

Lastly....it sure sounds like something isn't set right if you are going through multiple barrels of Methanol. I have a pretty busy wash....a 3/2....and I use about 1 to 1.5 barrels per winter. Are you diluting the Methanol/Soap through a Hydrominder properly?

 

[slash007]

When you get a chance, I would appreciate a picture or more information on your system. About my usage, look at this picture. The bottom black line is where the chemical was on Monday when I switched over. It has not been that busy and it has already gone down over two inches. I used a beige tip on Monday and Tuesday then switched over to red yesterday morning.

(picture is too large, I will upload later, but over two inches is what it dropped)

 

[slash007]

I just realized that I have been saying 55 gallon drum for the anti-freeze but what I actually have is a 30 gallon drum. No wonder it seems absurd to use that much lol. It's still using a lot, but half a 30 gal is much less than half a 55.