Vacuum timers...?

[soonermajic]

How often do these go out? We're on 1st & 2nd, in 3 days. Had zero for 18 mos...now 2 in 2 days.
How hard are they to change, & what brand should we get?
I Have IVS Vacs..?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Note - You can get fooled with a newer Paraplate. If there is a motor issue the timer has an internal trip / safety mechanism. It will re set if the fault is removed for a period of time. One way to tell is remove wires from the motor terminals, wait a minute or so and test with a meter to see if the timer works when coin switch is activated X # of times.

Leaving leads to motors attached and testing will make it seem as timer is not working because it remains tripped.

 

[cantbreak80]

IVS with mechanical coin acceptors used the IDX AT411E (IIRC). Easy changeout...just make sure to turn the power off beforehand.

 

[MDrost1]

I swapped all my vac timers to LED6 last August and don't regret the upgrade from the older GinSan timers. The LED6 look great and seem to work very well.

 

[MEP001]

I like the IDX timer, but I started replacing them with spare Dixmor timers as the IDX went out. The first one I cut a hole for the display, the next couple it was late at night both times and I just wanted the vac working so I just crammed the timer in the box and left it. It requires a transformer and relay to use a Dixmor - I had the transformer in place and had been planning to add mercury relay anyway to take the load off the timer. Once you do that the timers will almost never fail regardless of which one you use. Well worth the 30 something bucks IMO.

IDX makes a timer that will run on 24V or 120V and another model that will also output 24V for a coin acceptor when used on a 120V supply.

 

[soonermajic]

Earl, could you explain a lil more to me? Sounds like I need to pull the wires off the vacuums, wait 3/4 minutes, then check timer w/ a volt meter...? How & where do I check the timer? If it was a motor problem, then what's next step?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Earl, could you explain a lil more to me? Sounds like I need to pull the wires off the vacuums, wait 3/4 minutes, then check timer w/ a volt meter...? How & where do I check the timer? If it was a motor problem, then what's next step?

For instance if you have a paraplate timer the terminals are 1. Line 2&3 neutral 4 . Load. Now, typically 1 & 2 are incoming power. Put a volt meter on those 2 to make sure you have power coming in. 3 & 4 would then be the two that are for the motors. BUT YOU NEED TO TEST TO MAKE SURE. Someone could have swapped the 2 & 3 and it would still work. Anyway after confirming that 3 & 4 are for the motors (Unless it's 2 & 4 in which case for clarity I would switch the wires hooked to 2 and 3 so the relevant pairs are next to each other) remove those wires at the timer. This will eliminate any issues from the motors or the wiring from the timer to the motors from causing the internal trip of the timer. then trip the coin switch by either depositing required coins, or moving mechanical lever if you have one or touching coin switch leads and see if 3 & 4 register power with your volt meter. If it does you have an issue with a motor or wiring to the motor. To test you can either up top disconnect one motor at a time and see if either or both trip the timer. You can also remove and bench test with a home made set up.

 

[2Biz]

Do yourself a favor and wire in a Mercury Relay to handle the load. You simply use the timer output to power the relay. This will eliminate overload issues on the timer.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Do yourself a favor and wire in a Mercury Relay to handle the load. You simply use the timer output to power the relay. This will eliminate overload issues on the timer.

Also ads 2 more things to go bad / troubleshoot. As well as more spare parts to stock. I have about 20 vacs with and 20 without this setup.

 

[MEP001]

It would only add one more thing if you use a 120V coil mercury relay to a timer that's running on 120V, and they are a lot more robust than the relay in the timer especially the connections (Lugs instead of barrier terminals). In 12 years I've replaced probably 15 timers, all but a couple were internal relay failures where the motors stayed on and at least one of those ended up taking out the motors. Mercury relays don't stick closed unless someone tips the vac over.

 

[2Biz]

Also ads 2 more things to go bad / troubleshoot. As well as more spare parts to stock. I have about 20 vacs with and 20 without this setup.

Earl,

If you have 20 with timers only and 20 with timers and mercury relays, which setup gives you the least problems?

 

[Earl Weiss]

It would only add one more thing if you use a 120V coil mercury relay to a timer that's running on 120V, .......................

True enough. I was thinking of mine that use a 24V / 110 V Relay with a 24V transformer for the mechs.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Earl,

If you have 20 with timers only and 20 with timers and mercury relays, which setup gives you the least problems?

The ones with relays also have 24V transformers. Frankly none give me much problem. Probably replace a couple of timers a year out of the 40 Vacs. This includes Paraplate, Ginsan, and Coleman timers. I will acknowledge that the ones with relays and transformers seem to need less frequent replacement. But when the vac goes down It requires more diagnosis to see if it's the transformer or relay. The ones with relays were typicaly 3 motor vacs . Some still have the old Brown Paraplate models with the larger screw terminal. They could be 20+ years old. But them again have some Gin Sans without relays just as old.

 

[Randy]

25 years ago I put in our first Mercury relay, we’ve got them on all the vac’s now. We never have any problems with the vac timers since we installed the Mercury relays and we’ve never had a Mercury relay go bad. All of our vacuum control voltage is 24 volt so we use the 24 volt Mercury relays.

 

[soonermajic]

So, Mercury relays would totally replace my ParaPlates? Where do I get these Mercury relays?

 

[I.B. Washincars]

So, Mercury relays would totally replace my ParaPlates? Where do I get these Mercury relays?

They would be in addition to the Paraplates. The mercury relay takes the load of the motors off the timer.

Most CW suppliers should have them since they are pretty common. There's basically just two different ones. One has a 24V coil, the other 120V.

 

[soonermajic]

So , should I order Kleen-Rite timer TIKR540, since I'm using a Mercury relay?

 

[soonermajic]

Would a TIKR540 do just as good as the paraPlate? I see they're half as much. Would the TIKR540, from k-R, be even better than a ParaPlate, if I added a Mercury relay to it?

 

[2Biz]

I would say any timer will last longer if a Mercury Relay handles the load. I replaced all my vac timers 4 years ago with Paraplate timers, but installed 24v transformers and 24v mercury relays when I did. The only issues I had after that was with the mechanical coin acceptors! So having the 24v transformers already in place made it easier to install LED7 timers and electronic acceptors! Another benefit besides reliability, is revenue is up on the vacs without raising price. People love to see how much time they get when putting in coins. I see people now putting in 3 times the startup price where they didn't do that before because they couldn't see the time increase. All things to consider when upgrading!