Water Softener Brine Tank

[2Biz]

I have a Fleck 9000 Twin Tank 64K grain system. Recently I noticed brine water leaking out the overflow fitting and down the outside of the tank and onto the floor. I also noticed the water in the white tube was 5-6" higher than the water level in the tank and level with the overflow. So I figured the holes in the tube was plugged and the tank needed cleaned.

When dipping out the water and salt, most of the salt pellets had turned into a mush that had plugged the holes in the white plastic tube. According to my hardness readings before and after the softener, it appears to be working OK. So I have a few questions:

1. How often should the brine tank be cleaned? (Who knows how long its been, if ever! It was pretty nasty....)
2. When cycling, it filled the tank about half way with water. How much salt do you put in the tank? I always filled the tank to just above the water level which was about level with the overflow. Maybe this is too much? And maybe the tank has had issues for longer than I know?
3. The shelf in the bottom of the tank has "Flaps" that seal the shelf against the outside of the tank. Some of those flaps have broken off. Looks like a poor design and will let salt get under the shelf easier to plug the holes in the tube. Should this be replaced?
4. Actually the tiny holes in the shelf are big enough to let undissolved salt to sift down through it. I'm thinking this also adds to the packed salt in around the tube inlet holes. Is this normal? Or does a more regular cleaning schedule need to be implemented?

BTW...I use Mortons System Saver II Pellets...

I tried searching the forum for answers, but for some strange reason the search function isn't working in either Firefox of IE...

 

[Washmee]

Depending on the size of your softener, you may need as little as 5-10 gallons of water in your brine tank . If your brine tank is overflowing with water there are several possible causes. Due to the fact that you are still getting soft water, I would check to make sure the fill valve on the softer head is shutting off completely after it refills the tank. Having high water levels is sign that it is slowly seeping water into the tank.

 

[2Biz]

My brine tank is 18" x 40"...After cleaning the tank and completing a cycle, it filled with 12" of water or about 13 gallons. It won't draw that much since the air check valve is up and inch or two from the bottom of the tank. Another thing I noticed, after cleaning and adding salt and water manually, it would not draw brine. The air check ball must have been stuck for some reason. After freeing that up, it seemed to draw ok but when filling there was a lot of air coming through the fill line. I just ordered a new air check as I read that the ball can get water logged and not float correctly causing this. Its designed to shut off when you run out of brine to keep from drawing air into the tank being reginned. Mine does not have a safety fill valve, just an air check valve. I think I had a multitude of problems. Cleaning the tank and getting a new air check valve installed will help I'm sure. I also ordered a new grid plate. Seems as I have a standard 18" round tank. Parts are readily available.

http://www.softenerparts.com/Brine_Pick_Up_Tube_with_Air_Check_60002_p/fp60002.htm

 

[Washmee]

Sounds like you solved your problem. Nice job!

 

[Ghetto Wash]

I've ordered from softenerparts.com a couple of times also. He always responds quickly with email. Email him a description of your symptoms and he will recommend the proper solution.

If I know what I'm doing, I order from Wood Brothers. If I need tech help I get it from softenerparts and give them the order that they helped me on.

 

[MEP001]

As far as cleaning, I also use the Morton System Saver pellets. I had to move the brine tank for the first time in 11 years, and after letting the softener run until there was no salt left the tank was completely clean, no crud of any kind on or under the grid plate.

 

[cantbreak80]

When cycling, it filled the tank about half way with water. How much salt do you put in the tank? I always filled the tank to just above the water level which was about level with the overflow. Maybe this is too much? And maybe the tank has had issues for longer than I know?

AhHa!!!…Along with plumbing and electricity, water softeners are another one of those “Great Mysteries of Life”.

One gallon of water will be fully saturated with approximately one pound of salt.
You want it fully saturated because the brine is diluted as it’s drawn into the softener. Weak brine reduces the softener’s capacity before hardness breakthrough occurs.

64K = 2+ cu ft.
1 cu ft of resin can be efficiently treated with 6 lbs of salt
So, 12-13 lbs of salt into 12-13 gallons of water.
One 40 lb bag will provide approximately three regenerations

With a 1/4gpm brine refill rate, the Fleck timer should take 52 minutes to refill the brine maker. That’s 26 holes …before the “End of Cycle” pair of pins on the program wheel. Because the softener can’t draw 100% of the brine maker’s capacity, I’d give it a few extra minutes/gallons for wiggle room.

It takes up to 6 hours for the fresh water to become fully saturated. As long as there’s “some” undissolved salt in the brine maker, the softener will receive it’s fully saturated dose.

You can fill the brine maker plum-full with salt. But, should issues arise, you’ll have to scoop it all out before you can work on it. That’s my luck! I suggest no more than 2 bags of salt, just for that reason. Unless your raw water is unusually hard, you’ll likely only need to add a 40 lb. bag every couple of weeks…
64,000 x 85% = 54,400 treatable grains with minimum salting…
54,400 treatable grains / 6 grains raw water hardness = 9,066 gallons of softened water, per softener!

BTW, it takes almost 4 times the volume of salt to regen the remaining 15% of the resin’s capacity…not very cost effective.

 

[2Biz]

Thanks for all the replies and help....Your right, I've done lots of "Softener" research online and your right CB80, "Its (Still) one of those Mysteries of Life"! I think I've created a lot of the problems, myself, with filling the system all the way up with salt! I scooped out (7) 5 gallon buckets full of mushy salt then had to get rid of it! I thought about keeping it to help with ice this winter, but I didn't need more headaches!

At least, I think my softener was originally set up properly. My incoming hardness is 4-5 grains. Reading the water meter in the ER, the softener regins ever 9,000 gallons. Our water is softened already to a published 5 grains. After the softener, I get 0-1 grains. I usually don't have to add any drops when testing, the water turns blue after adding the pink powder....I think I'll take your advice CB80, I'll only keep 2 bags of salt in the brine tank...Makes perfect sense. I hated wasting all that salt let alone the work it took to get it all dipped out!.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

Why did you have to get rid of that salt? Couldn't you have just dumped it right back in after you had fixed your problem?

 

[2Biz]

I assumed since about 80% of the salt was mush that it wasn't any good? The mushy salt was what caused the problem in the first place. It had packed around the holes in the bottom of the white tube and wouldn't let water through. I didn't want to go right back to the same problem I had...

BTW, I ditched the elbow with the threaded ends and put a 3/8" push to connect elbow fitting in its place. Makes working on the Air Check a lot easier.

Something I discovered today after playing with the Air Check some more: Maybe this is the way it works or is supposed to work, maybe not? When I had trouble with the check valve earlier, I think I wasn't priming or preparing it correctly. I believe the ball will not float off the seat on its own, it has to be forced. So after you fill the tank with water and lower the CV into the water, if you try to draw water, you can't. Keeping the cv submerged, if you blow on the tube, it forces the ball off the seat and it will then float. When the system calls for brine, it will then be able to draw until the water level reaches the bottom of the CV shutting off flow. When the tank fills again, the water forces the ball off the seat and repeats the cycle. When I get the new Air Check, I'll test it to make sure it's the same..... This is something that can cause some problems if your not aware its happening.

 

[2Biz]

Resurrecting an old thread! Last weekend during my busiest day in 6 months, I was there at the wash and noticed my Softener was going haywire. The Cycle motor and cam spinning out of control...One of those "Oh $hit" moments! Anyway, finally figured out how to get it stopped in the "Service Position" ....Home....And at least kept things running...Messing with it this week, I noticed the Cycle motor would spin backwards rotating the cam backwards. I figured that was odd...So I called in the troops! Dayton Water Systems...The service man showed up on Friday and completely rebuilt the head...All new pistons, rubber washers, many-many internal parts that I would have no way known how to install...He also replaced the back plate including the cycle drive motor, cam, and gears...He did all that in about an hour! He said there is a clutch in the Cycle motor to keep the motor and cam from spinning backwards...Mine had obviously failed and allowed the motor to spin backwards. When it does this, it wipes out the micro switches....Hence, a spinning-out-of-control softener!

I gained some very valuable knowledge by biting the bullet and hiring this out. First time I've ever done that since owning the wash. There was no way I could have done what he did and in no way in such short amount of time...Sometimes you just have to leave it to the Pro's! Anyway, another one of the valuable things I learned besides what caused the out-of-control condition, was I had been using Mortons System Saver II salt pellets...Not optimum and he explained why. The pellets are held together by "Starch" which will not dissolve in the water. The starch builds up in the bottom of the tank until it restricts flow to the brine float valve, obviously causing issues....An issue I've already had! What he recommended to use is "Crystal Solar Salt"....It is in natural Crystal form and does not have the added starch...

So after 6 years of owning the CW, I was still able to learn something new! It might have cost me a little more than usual! But this time it was worth it...Oh BTW, my regin timer was set for almost 3 hours....Way too long and wasted a lot of salt and water over the years! He reset it to the normal 1.5 hrs regin and brine fill times based on my hardness. It might take awhile, but I will get an ROI for the service call!

 

[MEP001]

IMO he replaced a lot of parts that had nothing to do with your original problem.

I'll have to take a closer look at a Fleck 9000 control motor, but I don't think there's any sort of clutch on it. I have seen several times where it decides to run backwards, at which point it breaks the switches and will continue to run until it's unplugged.

There is no "starch" in the Morton System Saver II pellets, it's just salt and a tiny amount of chemical that helps keep the resin clean. Crystal Solar Salt is sh*t, it's dirty and can clog the injectors. I've dumped out brine tanks with several inches of silt in the bottom from people using it. When I dump out a tank that's been using Morton, it's completely clean.

BTW, I am a pro.

 

[TheTallGuy]

Wow! That's good to know. I too am one that is using the Morton System saver pellets. And yes I am also filling my tank too full. I thought I needed to maintain a level equal to or a little above the water line. Should I now let the salt level drop lower before adding more salt? Also changing to Crystal now.

 

[Rudy]

Also been using Morton System Saver for years with NO issues. My local Lowes just dropped Morton, and replaced it with Diamond Salt. We'll see. Looks to be the same.

Salt level HAS to be above the water line. The only issue from "filling my tank too full" is due to the structural strength of the floor of the brine tank. If the brine tank was set up properly....overfilling should not be an issue. The only time I had a problem, was because the "floor" of the brine tank was made from masonite pegboard. It finally weakened, and got crushed under the weight. I replaced it with something much sturdier....and no problems.

 

[2Biz]

Mep....I'm listening but not convinced! Maybe some others will chime in with their experience with Mortons or Solar Salt. I picked up some Diamond Crystal Solar Salt yesterday and will open a bag to see how "Dirty" it looks. Since the last time my softener was rebuilt (new seal seal kit) was in 2000, and since my softener is 30+ years old, and since a service call is $100+...I opted to spend another $150 and have him rebuild the head....It was my choice...After 16 years of being in service, I didn't know the quality of the seals and internal parts and decided this was the right thing to do.

Tall guy...A few years ago I had issues with my brine tank. Like you, I thought I had to keep enough salt in the tank to just barely cover the water. Over the span of a few years, I had the salt all the way to the top of the white tube in the tank and the tank would fill all the way up with water. Sometimes even coming out the over flow...The culprit was the salt turning to mush and blocking the holes in the bottom of the white tube. Since water couldn't get into the tube from the tank fast enough, the brine cycle would short cycle and not pull out enough brine leaving a lot of water in the tank.. But when it filled, it would put back more than it took out, hence over time a full brine tank. So now I barely keep a bag of salt in the tank...The water level never rises like it did before. Also, keep in mind, I only regin at 9000 gallons. So the salt lays in there a lot longer than most softeners with harder incoming water.

 

[2Biz]

Mep...This is Diamond Crystal Solar Salt for water softeners...Doesn't look too dirty to me! You sure you're not thinking of Diamond Crystal Ice Melt? I've used it to melt snow and ice and it can look dirty...I guess I shouldn't second guess you since, "You are a Pro"!

My Lowes and Home Depot has also dropped Mortons...Might be a good time to try this Solar Salt and see how it works...I think the key is not adding too much to the tank...Unless you are running considerable hard water. Mine comes in at 4-5 grains. I soften down to zero...My salt can lay in the bottom of the tank for a very long time...Spanning more than a month...So it may be more critical than tanks that go through a lot more salt than I do.

 

[2Biz]

BTW...The Service Man reset my timer to 8-54-6-10 for the 64,000 grain tank capacity...It was set to double that which was wasting a lot of salt and water...Maybe the PO didn't know it had a 1/30th timer motor instead of a 1/15th timer motor. With the 1/30th timer motor, Each pin is 2 minutes instead of 1 minute if you are using the 1/15th motor.

The numbers refer to 8 min. Backwash; 54 min. Brine and Slow Rinse; 6 min. Rapid Rinse; 10 min. Brine Tank Refill at 1 gallon a minute. At 3 lbs of salt saturation per gallon of water, 10 gallons of water is all I need for the brine cycle. So given this, my tank should never have more than 10 gallons of water in it or just a little more that the pickup tube can't get to....If yours is at the top of the tank, you may be having issues and not know it!

 

[I.B. Washincars]

I'm definitely an idiot when it comes to water treatment, but my water guy also recommended that I NOT use solar salt.

 

[2Biz]

Makes you wonder whether one type requires more service calls v/s the other?!?! Hence more $$$ for the dishonest service guy!

 

[2Biz]

Hmmm....Just found this article...

There are three types of softener salts: rock salt, evaporated salt & solar crystal salt.

Rock salt is mined from salt deposits & used in its rawest form. This means it contains more insoluble materials. Impurities such as calcium sulfite would remain in rock salt & will not dissolve. Using rock salt will lead to frequent cleaning of the salt reservoir. The impurities collect at the bottom of the brine tank and will eventually clog the brine tank outlet.



Evaporated salt is a purer salt than rock salt. It is taken from the rock salt deposits in process of dissolving. Moisture is evaporated out & only salt is left. Evaporated salt is hard to find & more expensive to buy. This salt is mainly used in cooking processes. On average this salt can cost .44 to .58 cents per pound.



Lastly, and the best yet, is solar crystal salt. Solar salt is from evaporated sea water. The process includes evaporating seawater with sunlight. Solar crystal salt has a lower sodium content and much lower insolubility level than other salts. It is a much purer salt then rock salt and the best salt for your softener system. There would be less cleaning and clogging of your softener system.