Water Softener

[rshiggaon]

Hello Everyone: I’m considering a $9k investment in a water softener for my car wash (5 self-serve bays + 1 IBA) to reduce chemical/RO membrane costs and improve wash quality. My water hardness is around 8-9 grains (moderately hard), but my tech suggests other upgrades (like paint and decals) might offer better ROI.

Would a softener be worth it in this case? Appreciate any advice!

Thanks!

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

In terms of water delivered to your RO system - it certainly should be soft. If you look up the feedwater specs on your RO system you should see something along the lines of <1 gpg hardness. You'll get much better life from your RO membranes with soft water, and you can reduce your concentrate flow to the minimum with proper pretreatment.

 

[Blanco]

Do you have a touchless? If your IBA is a touchless then having soft water is not a choice. It will improve wash quality tremendously. Also you will use less chemical. Nobody will remember your decals but they will remember how clean or dirty their car came out. That will bring repeat customers then you can use the extra funds for cosmetics.

 

[water guy]

Really

 

[Greg Pack]

I would think at 8-9 grains you could soften chemical feed and RO feed water only. I do that at mine with a single tank system with a 2750 head. Can't remember grain capcity but I think it's between 150 200K. You could do tha and save some. It's not quite as efficient as a twin tank system but when you're doing chemical and RO only the second tank won't offer a quick enough return on efficiency to worry about it. Buckeye could comment but that's probably;ly a sub-5K system and you can use the savings for cosmetics.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

The primary advantage of a twin alternating configuration is that you get uninterrupted soft water 24/7/365. With a single tank soft water will be unavailable for about 1.5 hrs each time it regenerates. This can work well in situations where there is typically downtime in the middle of the night or where you have RO water storage capacity that can address any demand during that 1.5 hr period.

As for the brass electro-mechanical 3/4" to 3" Fleck 2750 valve... well, I'm not a fan. Ancient technology that works fine when new but maintenance is a PITA, especially in situations where owners want to do the maintenance themselves.

Cost depends upon the specifics of valve size and tank size/resin volume.

Russ

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

This recent industrial customer had very hard water, high flows, a high volume demand, and needed soft water without interruption. A twin tank alternating softener with 2" Clack valves was the solution. With 30 cuft of resin, each tank has a capacity of 900,000 grains at 15-lbs salting. The tanks are 42" in diameter and 72" tall (90" tall including the base). The shared brine tank is 60" tall and 50" in diameter.

 

[OurTown]

This recent industrial customer had very hard water, high flows, a high volume demand, and needed soft water without interruption. A twin tank alternating softener with 2" Clack valves was the solution. With 30 cuft of resin, each tank has a capacity of 900,000 grains at 15-lbs salting. The tanks are 42" in diameter and 72" tall (90" tall including the base). The shared brine tank is 60" tall and 50" in diameter.
View attachment 12087

What is the advantage of the tall bases?

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

That's just the way the manufacturer (Structural/Pentair in this case) makes many of their largest tanks. In some cases it facilitates plumbing connected to the bottom of the tank.

 

[rshiggaon]

Do you have a touchless? If your IBA is a touchless then having soft water is not a choice. It will improve wash quality tremendously. Also you will use less chemical. Nobody will remember your decals but they will remember how clean or dirty their car came out. That will bring repeat customers then you can use the extra funds for cosmetics.

Mine is a soft touch system. Currently, all my packages include a spot-free cycle. However, there may be a few minor spots caused by small droplets from residual water clinging to the gantry or tips as the machine moves over the blow cycles.

Any significant savings from the chemical usage? Can I assume I can go one tip down from what I have now?

 

[rshiggaon]

In terms of water delivered to your RO system - it certainly should be soft. If you look up the feedwater specs on your RO system you should see something along the lines of <1 gpg hardness. You'll get much better life from your RO membranes with soft water, and you can reduce your concentrate flow to the minimum with proper pretreatment.

Yes, I agree. The RO membrane cost me $400, which I currently end up replacing every year or 1.5 years now.

 

[rshiggaon]

I would think at 8-9 grains you could soften chemical feed and RO feed water only. I do that at mine with a single tank system with a 2750 head. Can't remember grain capcity but I think it's between 150 200K. You could do tha and save some. It's not quite as efficient as a twin tank system but when you're doing chemical and RO only the second tank won't offer a quick enough return on efficiency to worry about it. Buckeye could comment but that's probably;ly a sub-5K system and you can use the savings for cosmetics.

I did consider this, but it would require extensive plumbing work to set up the chemical water input supply for both self-serve and IBA. Since one tank costs around $4k, I'd prefer to invest a bit more to add a second tank and avoid this hassle in the future.

I'm currently trying to calculate potential savings on chemicals to determine if this investment would be worthwhile.

 

[Greg Pack]

My main motivation for softening water is not to save money, but to increase the quality of a touch free wash. If you're happy with your touch free wash performance and you've got a bunch of happy customers you need to take a harder look.

Pros: Your chemical cost may go down a little (maybe 10%) and your RO membranes will likely last a good bit longer. I get 5 years plus out of a membrane. Your touch free will likely clean better. You may be able to swap to a more economical chemical that is not hard water tolerant. There will be less residual hardness scale accumulation on the walls and equipment.

Cons: you will now have to purchase salt, which is getting more and more expensive. When I got in the business it was $3/bag, Now it's up to almost $10/bag. the cost of salt may negate any chemical cost savings. You will also have to periodically re-bed the softener maybe every five years, maybe every ten, at the cost of couple thousand dollars on a large twin tank. And a large twin tank takes up a lot of room.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Yeow. Home Depot and Lowes have salt for $6/bag by me. Tractor Supply is a bit cheaper.

 

[rshiggaon]

My main motivation for softening water is not to save money, but to increase the quality of a touch free wash. If you're happy with your touch free wash performance and you've got a bunch of happy customers you need to take a harder look.

Pros: Your chemical cost may go down a little (maybe 10%) and your RO membranes will likely last a good bit longer. I get 5 years plus out of a membrane. Your touch free will likely clean better. You may be able to swap to a more economical chemical that is not hard water tolerant. There will be less residual hardness scale accumulation on the walls and equipment.

Cons: you will now have to purchase salt, which is getting more and more expensive. When I got in the business it was $3/bag, Now it's up to almost $10/bag. the cost of salt may negate any chemical cost savings. You will also have to periodically re-bed the softener maybe every five years, maybe every ten, at the cost of couple thousand dollars on a large twin tank. And a large twin tank takes up a lot of room.

Thank you, Greg, for your thoughtful input. My IBA system is of a soft-touch type. I think the reason some of you mention "touch-free" could be due to the higher cost of chemicals which in fact reduce costs by adding softener.

I haven't heard many customer complaints, but I do notice that on the self-serve side, most customers just drive away without taking the time to dry their vehicles. I suspect they may end up with spots, but that hasn't been an issue with the IBA (every package has a spot free rinse + blower).

Ultimately, it seems the quality of the wash experience my customers receive will weigh more heavily in my decision than just the potential savings. Huhh .

 

[Blanco]

Mine is a soft touch system. Currently, all my packages include a spot-free cycle. However, there may be a few minor spots caused by small droplets from residual water clinging to the gantry or tips as the machine moves over the blow cycles.

Any significant savings from the chemical usage? Can I assume I can go one tip down from what I have now?

My first tunnel I bought I was watching cars come out looking great. I asked the owner what kind of soap does he use. He walked me to the back room and showed me a pallet of dawn dish soap. I only had touchless washes before that use a a lot of chemical to clean. I was completely surprised by how little soap a friction wash needs to clean. If your wondering I used the pallet for hand soap over probably 3 years lol Put real chemical online. The point is you dont need a lot at all to clean with a friction. Go down tip sizes until it does not clean then go back up one or two. Just watch your cars coming out. TBH with just a friction unit I would not worry about soft water. Whatever chemical saving you may have will be offset more by the cost of salt.

 

[Blanco]

This recent industrial customer had very hard water, high flows, a high volume demand, and needed soft water without interruption. A twin tank alternating softener with 2" Clack valves was the solution. With 30 cuft of resin, each tank has a capacity of 900,000 grains at 15-lbs salting. The tanks are 42" in diameter and 72" tall (90" tall including the base). The shared brine tank is 60" tall and 50" in diameter.
View attachment 12087

Looks great! I like the bases for cleaning. The SCH 80 plumbing makes me want to throw up though lol Im assuming that was the plumbers or owners choice

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Yes - there is a lot of Sch 80 in this facility.