Weep/Purge System!

[Bubbles Galore]

It's cold! This winter is already kicking my *ss and it's time to make some changes. After reading tons of different posts from guys like BigLeo and MEP001, I am going to design a prototype purge system for one of my bays to see how it will work out. With 8 bays, you can imagine the amount of water that I put out in weeping throughout the winter here in the Great Lakes!

Everyone will tell me to use a smart relay or plc of some sort. I don't want to make that initial investment in both the equipment and knowledge just to see if it will work. Any ideas on a timer/controller that can receive an input and then control (in series) 3 different outputs? This is far and away the most difficult aspect to the system.

Here's how I envision it to work:

1. Once the bay is turned on, the purge system would enter a standby mode until the input from the bay was closed (cycle ends).
2. An air purge system would begin via a solenoid attached to the HP line. Amount of purge time would vary per bay due to the distance of each line.
3. After the air purge was finished, a solenoid would open along with a circulation pump that would feed an isopropyl alcohol/water mix through the lines to prevent freeze ups.
4. That would essentially be it until another wash cycle began and then ended...

FYI...let's try and keep it constructive. Feel free to throw darts at it, but try to keep the darts constructive as to accomplishing this goal.

Suggestions, thoughts, ideas?!?

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Before this question comes up...I can buy alcohol very reasonably here from an industrial supplier.

I will use a tank and a hydrominder setup to properly mix the ratio of alcohol to water.

The ratio was found by investigating several different MSDS sheets for windshield wiper solutions that would withstand freezing to -40 degrees F.

I don't want to use an air actuated pump (i.e. a Flojet) but I have yet to find a pump that I want to use for sure. I'm open to suggestions.

 

[bigleo48]

After looking at multiple ways of doing this, the complexity involved, the learning curve (and errors committed). I decided to make it really really simple.

I'm gonna continue to weep out the guns controlled by the weepmiser. As for the foam brush, from Jan to March, where I weep the most, I find the foam brush hardly ever gets used. So I got a couple of 55 gal antifreeze foam brush soap and will feed without a tip (or a white tip) and turn off the weep to the brushes. That should save me about 60% of my weep water bill for those months and I will have the side benefit of the FB soap not freezing on the hog hair or the car...and people washing with the weep from the FB.

Easy chessy...Big

 

[MEP001]

I've been working on a similar idea, but instead of purging the line with antifreeze I want to purge the line with air, shoot only a small amount of antifreeze through and blow it down with air again. The purpose would be to minimize the amount of product used.

The programmable relay I use costs $126. A ladder program for something as simple as what you want can be entered on the display without buying the cable and software, although understanding the different relay blocks is necessary to do that. I could quite easily write the program for you to your specs and tell you what to enter. I don't know of a single relay that can do what you want, but it can be done with a series of relays.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Been thinking along the same lines. My weepmizer controls both the lines to the High Pressure and the Foam Brush. For the FB their is a manifold for the bays with each having a NO Solenoid. When the weep is on the solenoid is open and the lines are fed by the weepmizer. If someone uses the bay and chooses FB the current that opens the FB solenoid also closes the NO solenoid. I have the ability to sut off the weep to the FB and just use winter formula FB Soap from which I get from KR.

Anyway I had a thought of simply taking off the water supply lines to the weep . (Have Hot and cold T'd in so I can vary the temp as needed,) and simply attaching a line from the air compressor. Now the issues would be air volume / pressure needed and whether the volume of air needed would be more costly to supply than the cost of water weeped. With some sort of PLC I guess you could program the neccessary time for the air pressure to do the purge. I would think the air would need to be realy dry to avoid water from condensing and freezing when it goes from a 40 degree equipment room thru lines that may be 10 degrees or colder.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I've been working on a similar idea, but instead of purging the line with antifreeze I want to purge the line with air, shoot only a small amount of antifreeze through and blow it down with air again. The purpose would be to minimize the amount of product used.

Years ago a buddy and I had a route where we installed coin op tire air inflators on a revenue sharing basis. One way we kept the lines from freezing as the air expanded, cooled and moisture condensed was to use an air line oiler filled with antifreeze. This used a minimal amount. I wonder if something similar could be done.

 

[Eric H]

post deleted While I get my thoughts together.

 

[MEP001]

I would think the air would need to be realy dry to avoid water from condensing and freezing when it goes from a 40 degree equipment room thru lines that may be 10 degrees or colder.

That and the fact that you can't blow every bit of the water out of the hose is why I want to do a short purge of antifreeze and not just blow it out with air. I figure a very small amount would be enough to push out the remaining water, and if the antifreeze is strong enough a little remaining water in the hose won't dilute it above a freezing point.

 

[Bubbles Galore]

As far as the foam brush is concerned at my wash, I use the methanol foam brush solution to purge the lines after the "summer" soap has been used during the cycle. I've already crossed that bridge and have been very happy with it thus far which has spurred along the urge to press forward with this purge system for the HP lines!

MEP - Do you use the idec SmartRelay with the display on it? What kind of pump would you recommend for pumping the solution into the lines?

 

[MEP001]

I use the Siemens Logo. I would recommend a Flojet - why are you opposed to them?

 

[Bubbles Galore]

I guess I am not necessarily opposed to them, I just wasn't sure if there was a better alternative...wouldn't the alcohol be fairly harsh to the seals in a flojet (or any other pump for that matter?)

 

[washnvac]

Why can't you use recycled water to weep with? Even if you do not have an actual reclaim system, you should have the tanks to draw from with a small pump & tank system. I use straight reclaim for my hp weep. I have a fresh water line tee'd in with a NO solenoid, just in case the power goes out.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Why can't you use recycled water to weep with? Even if you do not have an actual reclaim system, you should have the tanks to draw from with a small pump & tank system. I use straight reclaim for my hp weep. I have a fresh water line tee'd in with a NO solenoid, just in case the power goes out.

One issue for recycled water would be to make sure the water is filtered so it doesn't clog your tips.

I didn't think of this but thought it bleepin' brilliant - My Weep has a line with a NO solenoid T'd in. If power goes out the solenoid opens allowing the weep to run. The power to this solenoid is also controlled by a switch in the "on" position . To check the lines for blockages or just run it if it is not cold enough I simply tirn the switch to OFF and the solenoid opens.

Also interesting was that the switch, which is a standard light switch was intentionaly installed upside down, so downis the "On" position, which is what it needs to be in for the system to be off unless there is a powwer failure.

 

[bigleo48]

I guess I am not necessarily opposed to them, I just wasn't sure if there was a better alternative...wouldn't the alcohol be fairly harsh to the seals in a flojet (or any other pump for that matter?)

Flojet have models for harsh chemicals.

Big

 

[I.B. Washincars]

I guess I am not necessarily opposed to them, I just wasn't sure if there was a better alternative...wouldn't the alcohol be fairly harsh to the seals in a flojet (or any other pump for that matter?)

I've been using the "Santo" FloJets for years with AF and have no more issues than I have with the others chemicals (except tire cleaner).

 

[soapy]

I had a wash that was plumbed to recycle all the weep water. It had to be filtered and heated. After a couple of years I figured out it was cheaper to weep water with a weep miser than it was to pay for the pump and heating of the recycled weep water. I have also been using a flojet for methenol winter foamy brush for years with no problem. If you have eight bays I would shut a few down in the winter.

 

[garbageman]

So what about the time when a customer switches to a function off of the gun, like foam brush? Will you purge at that time as well? If a customer spends enough time using the brush you could freeze the guns in that time without it.

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Not a bad question, but if its cold enough for the gun to freeze up, then I don't feel as though they will be spending a whole lot of time using the FB...at least that is how I am rationalizing it...

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

John, since I switched to from weeping my FB to a winter methanol FB (5 years or so ago) I've seen a significant increase in foaming brush use in the winter. Down to about 20 degrees F. Three reasons as I see it:
- no big block of ice on the brush
- the FB lines freeze up less, ie "it works"
- my customers like the brush.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

PLJ is right. If it will work more customers than you think will use it.