Weep Water flow amounts

[copperglobe]

In the SS bay guns and the foamy brushes if you are using weep water how much water are you flowing through the guns and the brushes? I don't know how your could quantify the amount of water but simply by looking but, example, if the gun is held horizontal how far out does the stream shoot? Or, with the brushes how long to fill a 5-gallon bucket? I'm sure it has to do with where your wash is located and the lowest temperatures.

It seems at our washes we flow too much water for the temps but don't want to keep cutting back and have a frozen down wash. Thanks

 

[MEP001]

You might want to look at a Weep Mizer. It doesn't just weep all the time, it "pulse-weeps" at first, and the length of time it runs gets longer as it gets colder until it's on all the time. It's adjustable for the length of time it's on for each temperature gradient.

 

[Keith Baker]

There are a lot of variables to consider when you try to determine this. Water flow, water temperature when it leaves the building, how far is the hose exposed to the outside?
At my drive in, back out wash in Omaha my wands will fill a 12 ounce pop can in about 30 seconds when running full time without the trigger pulled. I don't weep my foam brushes.
My weepmizer ramps up to 50% by 25 degrees and 100% at 20 degrees. The water will switch to come out warm when the air temperature gets to 15 degrees. If it is windy, I'll override the heat thermostat and send out warm water. About the only time I have a freeze up is when the wind blows real hard.
I don't like wasting water but I would rather send out more than necessary then spend an afternoon thawing out a frozen bay.

 

[Overachiever]

I'm curious too... I replaced some of the weep lines this summer as they were becoming constricted with rust build up and now it seems like I have almost too much water coming out when the weep is on. I use a weepmizer but I feel like maybe I could reduce flow by partially closing some ball valves, etc. Just don't want to over do it and end up with a frozen facility.

 

[2Biz]

Duplicate post?

 

[2Biz]

I weep 16oz a minute out of the hp wands. I measure using a stop watch and measuring cup (4 cup 32oz). Pretty easy to do as long as you have needle valves. This amount has been tested down to minus 16 degrees, no freezeups . Cold water only. I do run heat tape and a floor heat loop in the trough. It stays a toasty 105-110 deg in the trough below 32 deg. The floor heat and heat tape turns on from the secondary output on the weepmizer. The foam gun and foam brush are winterized with washer fluid and air. I couldn't imagine paying for weep water to keep those two functions from freezing. Washer fluid costs me less than $50 a winter.

Another thing to note, if you have galvanized wands, pitch 'em. Pay the few bucks extra and get SS wands. I haven't had a freeze up since.

 

[cantbreak80]

I retired after 25 years in the industry, where I spent hundreds of hours designing, assembling, testing, and operating weep system freeze protection systems. I’ve experienced many “Humm, I never thought of that” moments while thawing out a car wash equipped with one of my designs. Or, realized how difficult future repairs would be. Or, how expensive and cost effective.

I concur with 2Biz’s 16oz per minute cold water volume, from a new weep gun. But, using ball valves to adjust flow rates can be quite difficult and time consuming. Needle or metering valves hold their settings better and are much easier to fine tune. Remember, every adjustment will impact every other flow setting.

Ditto his heat tape in the insulated roof trough. Sensors never indicate trough temps below 100 deg.

While being a bit heavy on the cost to implement, the washer fluid/air purge system for foam brushes and foam guns is amazingly effective and efficient. My most recent version has proven itself with lower water consumption and zero freeze-ups through many Denver winters. However, my washer fluid expenses are higher because when the sun’s out here, people are washing…in shorts!…at 25 deg…and, even lower! On a busy, sub-32 deg day, each brush might get winterized 4 or 5 times and hour. Otherwise, until someone uses it, there are no more operating expenses.

 

[2Biz]

Cantbreak80 knows what he's talking about! I learned from him!

I ripped out my old antiquated Mark VII weep system and designed a new weep system that allows for manual air and washer fluid blow down when I want to shut a few bays down...Weep comes in from the top (Notice top row of BV's are open). Washer Fluid and air come in from the bottom BV's...Shut off the top BV and open the bottom for air and WF....Simple using BV's at the air manifold and using the same WF flojet as the FB and Foam Guns...It might look like I'm the Wizard from "Wizard From Oz" but I can close down a bay in a matter of a few minutes and its always set up. Generally, I blow out with air then fill the line full of WF and leave it. Makes opening up less trouble free. It seemed like when I left the hose dry, I would get plugged nozzles when I opened back up. Leaving WF in the hose eliminated this issue. Ditto what CB80 says on the needle valves....This has been a set it and forget it system since I installed it.

 

[2Biz]

While being a bit heavy on the cost to implement, the washer fluid/air purge system for foam brushes and foam guns is amazingly effective and efficient. My most recent version has proven itself with lower water consumption and zero freeze-ups through many Denver winters. However, my washer fluid expenses are higher because when the sun’s out here, people are washing…in shorts!…at 25 deg…and, even lower! On a busy, sub-32 deg day, each brush might get winterized 4 or 5 times and hour. Otherwise, until someone uses it, there are no more operating expenses.

LOL....The difference between a rural 4 bay and a super busy 8 bay in Denver! Even with the busy washes, its much cheaper $$$ blowing a hose out and using WF than using weep water. Even where I live, water and sewage is $16 per 1000 gallons...Full on weep at 16oz a minute out of my weep guns is about 720 gallons a day. Again, I couldn't imagine the cost if I had to do 8 more hoses....

BTW CB80, how's retirement?!?!? Thanks for stopping by to let us know your still kicking!

 

[copperglobe]

What system do you use for washer fluid/ air purge in the foam brushes and foam guns?

 

[cantbreak80]

2Biz,
mixed emotions regarding “retirement”. On one hand, I’ve played a lot of golf – but, I’ve always played a lot of golf. On the other hand, I have nothing else to do now…one year in and I’m pretty stir crazy. Especially since “The Razz” is in off-season.


Copperglobe,
It’s an assembly of off-the-shelf components – a programmable logic relay with expanded I/O. The existing FB and FG air and liquid solenoids are re-wired to the Idec outputs. The added washer fluid solenoids are supplied from a 15 gallon drum with a FloJet G57.

My original design was quite “clunky”…back in 2005(?), the 1st generation Idec Smartrelay was pretty basic. The program simply filled each hose with washer fluid.

The concept was to simply replace the residual liquid in the exposed hose with washer fluid. Since air-blow-out alone could never clear the freezable soap from the low point in the bay hose, I added purge-fill-purge to the system. Experiments resulted in determining just how little washer fluid was needed to protect the bay components.

Since the 5th and 6th generation Idec’s are much more capable, my most recent installation controls the entire system 24/7/365 allowing for delayed activation when temps are below freezing – preventing protection sequences from occurring when customers simply pass through the foam brush selection.

The program’s default setting fires the FB air solenoid for 10 seconds, followed by 5 seconds of washer fluid. Then, a 5 second pause is followed by another 10 seconds of air-blow-out. I figured those times would be a good starting point. To make the original experiments easy to adjust, I added some “User Programmability” to the Idec. Turns out, the default times worked just fine.

IIRC, at 60psi the FloJet delivers 4 oz. of washer fluid per cycle, per bay. So, 32 oz. for the initial protection sequence and 4 oz. after each use. About 5cents per bay, per cycle???

 

[2Biz]

What CB80 said +

This is my rendition AKA Rev 1 "Home Brew"...While not perfect it works perfectly for winterizing the FB and FG! I'm just not as ballsy as some and trust the system to run the whole cycle including the winterizing part! I incorporated "2 second Delay On" relays in the pump stand control panel to eliminate the momentary "On" cycle with switch spinners...Since some trust the system more than I do, they control both the FB and FG with the PLR and use virtual delay relays in the PLR to keep the switch spinners from activating a blowdown cycle. That's some Cool Factor!!!

An issue I discovered AFTER rev 1....Is I really didn't need all the isolation relays...I could have just wired the bay inputs and the PLR power directly from the bay inputs and a single bay transformer...AS long as all commons are tied together which mine are. While it works perfectly the way it is, the relays are totally not needed. The switches on the side of the enclosure is for turning on/off input to the winterizing system between winter and summer. The mechanical relays are good for 1 million life cycles. If I do that many, I can afford the upgrade when they go bad!

CB80...That's what I'm afraid of when I retire...Not having enough to keep me from going stir crazy...I've kicked around selling everything that makes me work and ties me down and moving to Florida in the winter months...But a camper/motor home is pretty small for me and the wife to spend 24-7 in...I could see the walls closing in! So I feel your pain...You work till you can retire and its not that Golden Time you've worked so hard to get to....I'm thinking I'll keep the wash even after I retire from the day job just to release creative juices when needed...Or just have that place to go to just to get out of the house...Honey, I need to go to the wash...Be back later!

 

[loewem]

I'd like to add a freeze protection system. Will have to wait until next year at this point. Not a big deal since I'm in North Carolina and winters are not so bad. A couple of questions for you about the systems that you've built. Are they capable of replacing weep to the HP line? Maybe down to a certain temp? What is the estimated cost and time for building your system? I'd like to compare the do it yourself cost to the cost of the Polar Freeze Guard system. Polar Freeze Guard costs about $4,000 for a 12 output system and additional output are available. Thanks

 

[2Biz]

You sure you can get 12 outputs for $4000? I couldn't find any for that price. KR sells a unit called Subzero...A 4 bay 4 output system is $4490...

I have roughly $1000 in my system. About $300 for a single PLR and Expansion Module to get you 8 outputs. This is what you need for a 4 bay to protect 4 hoses...You need 4 air outputs and 4 WF outputs...So I have about $600 in controllers and another $400 in misc. connectors and tubing out to the bays...

Now if I charged by the hour how long it took me to learn all this stuff (BTW, I had an Excellent Mentor) I'm in the hole big time! LOL! But what else do you do in the dead of winter when you'd rather stay warm and cozy inside instead of freezing your fingers off outside?!? I had a Great Time learning what makes a PLR tick!

 

[loewem]

It might have been $4k for 8 outputs. That was a year and and a half ago and was looking to do low pressure in 4 ss bays. 4 outputs was about $3400 at that time.

Now I’m thinking about doing two ss bays and two automatics. 12 outputs total.

Am I missing any materials in my list below?

Flojet. $120
6 port Solenoid manifolds $280
Electrical enclosure $125
Regulators $30
PLCs $400
Relays $150
Terminal strips $40
Hose and fittings $150
Toggle Switches $75
Wiring $100
Transformer $25

 

[2Biz]

Your list looks pretty complete except you really don't need the relays and switches...

 

[cantbreak80]

Programming software ~$75.00

 

[MEP001]

Comm cable is another $75ish.

 

[2Biz]

The new Idec FL1F PLR uses a cat 5 cable to transfer data...So not a biggy if you go this route. I would suggest you D/L the latest version of the WindLgc software to see if you want to put the time in learning how it works. There is a Freeware version of it so you can play with it without purchasing the full blown version. The free version has the data transfer to the PLR part of the program inhibited...Everything else is fully functional.

The manual for the previous version FL1E had a manual just short of 500 pages! But don't let that scare you...There is a lot of useful information in it!

 

[Randy]

It's all way over my pay grade. I'll just use weep water and when it gets real cold that my helper bitches about the cold I'll shut down the car wash like we've been doing for years. When it gets real cold we don't get enough business to justify staying open. Up here in the Pacific Northwest no car wash that I know of has floor heat so it can get pretty icy when it gets real cold, normally we only get about 7 - 10 days of cold weather were we shut down. Last year we only shut down 5 days.