Winter foam brush soap questions

[OurTown]

This is our first winter with foaming brushes and we are having a few issues. Our summer soap is JBS Action (AT-105). With a yellow hydrominder tip and 50 psi on the Flojet /40 psi air injection it foams incredible. Actually our sales rep Marco took photos of the foam because he was so impressed. The cost per minute comes out to about $.035/minute which I think is great for the amount of suds we are getting. Winter temps came on real quick here in Ohio so Friday we switched over to JBS DT-250 winter soap. I put in a beige tip, drained the tank, refilled, and ran the brushes for about 5 minutes. Saturday morning we came in and the lines were not frozen but the brush hair was. I put in a black tip and we had some usage so I'm sure the weaker solution was flushed out with the stronger. Sunday morning was the same with the brush hair frozen but the lines okay. I did some calculations based on what we have used so far and it looks like we are using about $.35/minute of soap. That's nuts considering our price per minute on the bay is $.56/minute. ($2.00/3.6 minutes) Both nights were about 20F and that's not really that cold compared to what it will be this winter.

Questions:
1. Do you guys dial back the pressures to you Flojet and air injection when using winter soap?

2. How much more expensive is your winter soap compared to summer soap per minute?

3. Is the reason our brush hair is freezing is that the alcohol is evaporating faster than the water allowing it to freeze?

4. It looks like at 4:1 (no hydrominder tip) the soap is good down to 12F. How do you get it stronger with a hydrominder setup?

 

[washnshine]

Brushes will freeze up in an open bay. The mist from the other hp functions and overspray onto the brush will rinse out or dilute the risidual winter brush soap and they can freeze up. The lines are enclosed, stay protected from wind and don’t get diluted or flushed until you run something else through them. Just make sure you have signage that tells the customer to thoroughly rinse the brush before using. This is a good idea in summer and winter. Rinsing will thaw it out - even better if you use warm water.

 

[Earl Weiss]

1. I do not change pressures.
2. Varies. Per 5 Gal about $40 for AF and $80 for regular. But regular dilutes at 320 / 1. Lets use Beige as average and that is 8/1 . At 160 to one application cost would be about the same. At 8 to one you are using 20X as much. So 20X more expensive.
3. IMO the AF is t keep it from freezing on the car. Should not freeze if dliution is correct. If you weep it you have other factors at play.
4. KR Chart simply says No tip less than 0 10-0 is Black tip.

 

[chaz]

I’m in Cincinnati. Marco at a JBS knows his stuff. My system uses regular foam brush soap year around. My weepmizer flushes the foam brush lines after each use...I do get icing on the brushes but lines stay open. I use a different color winter soap vs. my regular soap so I can monitor use in my cameras.

Maybe also consider raising prices....I’m $3 for 4 minutes.

 

[2Biz]

OurTown, Your just 60 miles North of me, so you know all about the frigid cold temps we've been having the past few years. Most washes around me don't do anything at all with winterizing FB...They just let it freeze. The PO of my wash didn't do anything either, just let it freeze. I started using Methanol FB soap year's 2 and 3 and it was a pain in the a$$ and expensive like you mentioned. Then during warmups, you feel like you have to switch back to regular FB soap to save $$$...Back and forth, back and forth....You'll soon get tired of it like I did, maybe not!

You might want to review the thread below to see other options. For me, the result was well worth the effort! I winterize the FB and TF/PS gun with 2 separate PLC's using -20° washer fluid and air. Costs me about $75 to winterize 8 hoses per winter. I couldn't image weeping water knowing what it costs to weep the HP guns...See post 75 of the thread below...

http://www.autocareforum.com/showth...ble-Relay-or-PLC/page8&highlight=programmable

 

[OurTown]

I see there are several options to combat using so much methanol and we will address this issue at some point. For now I think we are going to just stick with it and change it back to summer soap only on nice busy days. 2Biz we would like to get down to your wash and check out your foam gun presoak, tire cleaner and antifreeze systems.

 

[slash007]

I let it freeze for a few years. Then switched to winter soap and lost my mind switching back and forth to regular during nice days and switching the tips when using winter soap based on temp so I dont' use too much. Started weeping 2 years ago and I use a crap load of water, but much less stress other than when I walk by and see all the wasted $ going down the drain. Next step is a system like 2biz as it's the most ideal.

 

[OurTown]

I lost my mind awhile back so no worries there. I have an extra tank and hydrometer but was wondering how far away from the intake of the pump it can be.

 

[Roz]

In looking at car washes for sale I came across a guy who created a closed loop weep system that recirculated the weep water. Was a brilliant implementation. If I ever build a place or redo my floors again I would create such a system.

 

[OurTown]

I actually was thinking of that for the wands. Do you know any of the details of it?

 

[Roz]

Closed loop pvc in the floors that circulates into a sump pump hole inside the equipment room. There is a float in the sump pit to help keep water moving. I wish I knew more about it too as I met with a worker who was not familiar with the system (not the owner). If you contact owner of Orchard Hills Car Wash in Thurmont MD maybe he will provide the details. If you get more info please share as it is a very cool idea!

 

[MEP001]

I have an extra tank and hydrometer but was wondering how far away from the intake of the pump it can be.

There shouldn't be a limit as long as the line size is sufficient. I once had to plumb RO water around a room to a Cat 390 pump, and the 70 feet of 3/4" hose was causing the pump to cavitate for a second when it first started. I eventually ran a 1" PVC pipe with a T at the bottom by the pump and a vent pipe taller than the tank at the other end of the building. Gravity kept the pipe full of water and the vented vertical line let the pump get good supply without having to pull on all that water weight to flow.

 

[cantbreak80]

2Biz’s system for foam brushes and guns works! It’s default settings have been thoroughly tested and proven in sub-zero country!

And, it will work for the wands, too. As long as the only products delivered to the guns is Soap, Rinse and Wax.
Low pressure tire/presoak/SFR solenoid manifolds can leak, resulting in a dribble of water into a previously freeze protected bay. Have you ever seen a mysterious trickle coming out of idle bay’s wand? It’s that customer using SFR or presoak…3 bays away!

Systems that deliver SFR through the bay pumps don’t have this problem.


My installation uses a bit more washer fluid due to the larger facility and our weather. Following a snow storm, a 25F sunny day brings out the foam brush using customers. The foam brush and foam gun freeze protection gets a real workout...4 to 5 times per hour per bay. And when the cold and snow hits for 3 to 4 days it just sits there waiting for the next user of that 5cents/per minute foam brush soap!

 

[2Biz]

I learned from the best!

 

[cityview]

For what its worth, I'm right around the corner from you. My brushes freeze, and just always accepted as normal. The lines hold up fine.

I dial down the liquid pressure on winter soap also to 30 psi. That reduces the flow, therefore reducing the cost.