Winter is coming... floor heat.

[Knight01]

in my ongoing struggle to bring this zombie car wash back to life, my immediate needs turn to facing down the upcoming Ohio winter. There is no floor heat in the wash, although it appears at one time there was. All I have now are these lines sticking out of the floor (pic)

I do not know why the lines were cut.
1. Possible they burst at some point and it wasn't cost effective to replace.
2. The boiler / circulator stopped working and was not replaced so was just removed and lines cut at that time.
3. A prior owner didn't see any value in keeping the floors clear and scraped the the boiler for the metal vslue.
4. There was never actually floor heat, these were put in at construction but never connect

Regardless of what happened, what do I do with what I have to get things back in shape? I presume I need to start with pressure testing the lines.. what pressure should I use and how long? Presuming the lines are good. I have no clue on the size of a boiler needed for the 4 bay wash. Nor do I know what else would be needed or how to install or where to buy.

If the lines are bad, what alternatives do I have aside from ripping up cement and replacing the lines?

 

[cantbreak80]

Worst time ever to obtain a hydronic boiler! Most are on backorder...12 to 16 weeks! Just have a look at supplyhouse.com...every brand is either "out-of-stock" or "backorder".

Your picture looks like black poly pipe from the 1970s. Used for lawn sprinklers...not suitable for the long term. And, if that's the extent of the existing tubing there are not enough supply and return loops for a typical 4 bay. Three equal length loops per bay with distribution manifolds is a more efficient design.

Current systems feature oxygen barrier PEX or PE-RT tubing...with all circuits less than 200' +/- 10%.

If you have adequate headroom, a 4" overpour of the existing slab would eliminate the need for complete tear out.

www.carwashboilers.com is in Ohio. Give Chris a call.

 

[jack954]

i don’t have an answer to your problem but my situation is similar. i have the same plastic tubing and about 10 years ago i decided to quit using my floor heat all together as too many of my tubes were cracked under the concrete and leaking. the few lines that weren’t cracked wasn’t worth the winter gas bills. unfortunately now i have to babysit the wash more in the winter (st. louis). my strategy is to run hot water to my rinse as well as my chemicals, weep hot water, salt on occasion and only have half my bays open at 30 degrees. at about 25 degrees i will close all bays except for my heated automatic. any bays that will be closed for 2 or more days i will run windshield washer fluid thru the lines so as to not have to waste hot weep water. here in st louis not many people are washing under 25 degrees so i am not losing much business.

 

[2Biz]

I also have the black plastic pipe. Installed about 40 years ago, estimated. Here in Southern Ohio we used this tubing for housing water supply from the meter to the basement or crawl space...It was all that was approved and available back then. Pex wasn't introduced in the states until mid 80's, so wasn't an option when mine was installed!! Luckily my tubing loops are still good! And BTW, I only have one loop per bay. Works to a verified -16°!

Below is a link I started back in 2012 when I took out a 350K BTU Jarco Boiler and installed a condensing, modulating 199K demand heater to take over the job....Below is the link with plenty of info and pictures if you want to learn more. Currently the Takagi T-H3-DV-N that I installed is about $1000....Mine has been installed now for 9 years...Some winters it gets quite a workout. Not a single issue, so far. If it ever goes bad, replacing will be easy and cheap! I can replace the Takagi many many times and will never cost as much as one of the new fangled modulating-condensing boilers...Something to consider!

Sorry, CB80....We differ on this one!! LOL....

(46) Tankless Water Heater For Floor Heat | Car Wash Forum

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

Yeah, the quality of those tubes looks not so good. But the first thing Id do is pressure test them, everything else is speculation and stress until you know the answer to the pressure test.

You can just use city water pressure with a hose and a couple fittings (and shutoffs so your tubes are isolated), or you can do the same with air & your compressor. Block off one end of one tube (even a push loc fitting should be fine), pressurize the other end and while it is under pressure, close the shutoff (probably a simple ball valve with a push loc or sharkbite?). Oh, obviously you need a pressure gauge. I run mine at 15 psi so I pressure tested at 25 or so. I personally would give it a week, but if it holds for 24 hours its probably good enough to use.

FYI my floor heat tubes are old, not pex. Not as low quality as yours appear to be, but definitely not good modern material. They work.

 

[slash007]

I thought I saw this mentioned in a previous thread a couple years ago, but can't find it. Should I be adding pressure to the floor heat boiler tank that has a cap and glass showing the glycol level? I remember removing any pressure a couple of years ago when adding more glycol, but don't think I pressurized it afterwards. Thoughts? Thanks.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

/007, I'm fairly certain that you are describing a gravity feed tank, which should not be pressurized.
Disclaimer though, there are probably lots of design variations out there, hopefully you'll get a more informed response.

 

[slash007]

 

[cantbreak80]

With many Raypak atmospheric systems installed, none are pressurized.

A competitor's system was pressurized with a PRV at 8psi (like a residential/commercial hydronic heating system)
It sprung an undetected leak and filled the system with water. The subsequent multi-day power failure...well, it was ugly!

A newer ModCon system should include a glycol feeder to maintain system pressure and provide leak detection.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Slash, I believe Huron Valley typically says no pressure is needed. I do recall there being a reason you might need to pressure slighty...I think it had to do with eliminating harmonics in the system. If you're real curious, call Huron Valley and talk to Fred in tech support and inquire.

Knight01 if you decide to pressure test please do not use the suggestion of using city water pressure. Whether they leak or not you will be filling your bay floors full of water which WILL freeze when your slab reaches 32. If your concrete isn't busted up already it will be. Pressure test with air.

 

[DAWGWASH]

in my ongoing struggle to bring this zombie car wash back to life, my immediate needs turn to facing down the upcoming Ohio winter. There is no floor heat in the wash, although it appears at one time there was. All I have now are these lines sticking out of the floor (pic)

I do not know why the lines were cut.
1. Possible they burst at some point and it wasn't cost effective to replace.
2. The boiler / circulator stopped working and was not replaced so was just removed and lines cut at that time.
3. A prior owner didn't see any value in keeping the floors clear and scraped the the boiler for the metal vslue.
4. There was never actually floor heat, these were put in at construction but never connect

Regardless of what happened, what do I do with what I have to get things back in shape? I presume I need to start with pressure testing the lines.. what pressure should I use and how long? Presuming the lines are good. I have no clue on the size of a boiler needed for the 4 bay wash. Nor do I know what else would be needed or how to install or where to buy.

If the lines are bad, what alternatives do I have aside from ripping up cement and replacing the lines?



View attachment 4502

The best thing to do is to cone off the bays when the temp drops below 30. Any money you get you will spend more on heating the bays or putting salt down. We quit using floor heat 20 years ago and only use salt
Purchased a freeze prevention system 3 years ago that does a combination blow out and pumps chemical into system to keep from freezing. NO WEEP SI NO MESS IN BAYS

 

[slash007]

The best thing to do is to cone off the bays when the temp drops below 30. Any money you get you will spend more on heating the bays or putting salt down. We quit using floor heat 20 years ago and only use salt
Purchased a freeze prevention system 3 years ago that does a combination blow out and pumps chemical into system to keep from freezing. NO WEEP SI NO MESS IN BAYS

Which system did you buy? Do you just blow out the high pressure hose, or the brush and or Triple Foam as well?

 

[DAWGWASH]

Which system did you buy? Do you just blow out the high pressure hose, or the brush and or Triple Foam as well?

I set mine to blow out with air only at 39 deg and when it drops to 34 deg it 1st blows out with air then with a antifreeze solution We use RV fluid. We just use air on the brush and use both on the high pressure wand. On the wands it ties into the ho pump
I bought the SUBZERO system and it works great. Kleenrite also has a system. It eliminates all the wasted water, ice on the floor from weeping and the brushes full of ice from weeping. Plus if the city turns the eater off to work on a busted line your covered

 

[DAWGWASH]

I set mine to blow out with air only at 39 deg and when it drops to 34 deg it 1st blows out with air then with a antifreeze solution We use RV fluid. We just use air on the brush and use both on the high pressure wand. On the wands it ties into the ho pump
I bought the SUBZERO system and it works great. Kleenrite also has a system. It eliminates all the wasted water, ice on the floor from weeping and the brushes full of ice from weeping. Plus if the city turns the eater off to work on a busted line your covered

It also is tied into the bay meter and activates if the bay is used

 

[slash007]

I've tried just air for the brush hoses and had mixed results. Many times they still froze. Any issues at all for you?

 

[DAWGWASH]

I've tried just air for the brush hoses and had mixed results. Many times they still froze. Any issues at all for you?

No issues. It does several blow down cycles. It pulses on for about 10 sec then off then back on for about 4 times. You could hook the RV fluid to go into the brushes also.
the way they size the unit is you pay per# of points you want to blows down. I just tied the blow down from the wand into the brushes and only the wand gets RV fluid
if it’s going to get gold I shut down my bays It’s not worth $2 to possibly freeze up
I also just hooked up straight air so if I want I can run air to make sure all lines are clear. Before this system was installed we had a antifreeze injection system at one wash that would inject antifreeze in the brush lines and that worked well.
these system can also be used on IBA
THE 1st year we put in the city had problems with the water about 3 to 4 times and we would have froze up if we depended on our old weep system
Check your water bill in months your not weeping and months you weep and it’s a easy way to see what your wasting

 

[DAWGWASH]

No issues. It does several blow down cycles. It pulses on for about 10 sec then off then back on for about 4 times. You could hook the RV fluid to go into the brushes also.
the way they size the unit is you pay per# of points you want to blows down. I just tied the blow down from the wand into the brushes and only the wand gets RV fluid
if it’s going to get gold I shut down my bays It’s not worth $2 to possibly freeze up
I also just hooked up straight air so if I want I can run air to make sure all lines are clear. Before this system was installed we had a antifreeze injection system at one wash that would inject antifreeze in the brush lines and that worked well.
these system can also be used on IBA
THE 1st year we put in the city had problems with the water about 3 to 4 times and we would have froze up if we depended on our old weep system
Check your water bill in months your not weeping and months you weep and it’s a easy way to see what your wasting

My theory is don’t get too greedy for that little extra money and just close the wash off. Plus you don’t have the people trying to wash their car with weep water