Worse Possible Tar Mess in Bay Imaginable?

[mjwalsh]

We have a huge number of new & sometimes very young & inexperienced contractors in our area because of the shortage of housing. Last Wednesday one of my employees caught one of the vehicles before they had a chance to drive away. Apparently the two guys were ordered by their boss to clean up massive amounts of tar that they had on tools, rebar, scrap pieces of metal etc. & in the back of their construction pickup. Sticky tar all over 5 of our different hoses ... not tiny amounts but firm thick gobs & extremely stuck & attached all over. Our expensive polycarbonate overhead door was closed behind the pickup which could not be just sprayed off with hi pressure but also scrubbed & scrubbed via a brush & solvent. Long story short ... 2 extra long hog hair brushes completely filled with tar that they said they would clean for us ... they have not returned them to us & I do not believe they will be able to clean them satisfactorily. 7.5 man hours of intense scrubbing cleanup showed on our serveillance video of three of us pulled off of other work so we could keep downtime to a minimum. To give you a sense of the magnitude ... we had to throw away about 20 pairs of Nitrile plastic gloves & about 15 used rag like towels & use one half gallon of Zero Cleaning Solvent that we had on hand. Keep in mind this is our busiest time of year & as they left the weather was warmer than freezing, sunny & nice.

They actually had the gall to suggest that they assumed that it was our responsibility to clean up whatever. They tried to say that the walls were rusty ... no tar ... which was absurd since we have FRP & 100% stainless steel in our bay. We have had our truck bay since 1968 & know all about how tough a 5th wheel mess can be ... not even close to the horrific process involved with that much Zero solvent needed & manpower to thoroughly remove the tar.

Police were not called because we had the license number & the name of the company & its parent company. The parent company does actual house building along with the tarred foundation walls. I talked on phone with one of the bosses & emailed him but so far no proper response. I told them in an email that they should consider themselves lucky that we got to it before a brand new vehicle came with a person wearing expensive clothes etc. I made it clear to them that they would have been responsible for any damage to that person up until the time we would see the tar in the event of a "mess & leave" scenario. Keep in mind shoes would immediately get tar on them before we had cleaned the bay floor up.

Has anyone had anything this horrific of sheer stupidity of a tar mess with consequences to your car wash ... where you were faced with going to small claims court? What kind of going hourly rate would you charge them for that kind of clean up? 100% proof can be shown to the judge ... as far as we are concerned via our cameras. I am not sure on how the small claims court will need the footage. I can run my footage from my smart phone (remote desktop) but would probably need to output to an HDMI larger screen for the court.

Any suggestions on how to proceed to make sure these inexperienced & irresponsible under thirty year olds are held accountable for the situation they created? How much time would you give them to accept & pay for the reasonable charges of items ruined (current price list docs attached to email) & $20 per hour labor? Would their contractor's insurance or license come into play? With those of you with credit card acceptance ... if they had used that in the bay ... would you have the ability to bill their credit card for more than their wash? I know one time I was visiting a manager at a rental shop once & he said that once a contractor made such a mess out of one of their portable personnel hoists & he just charged considerable added expense to the contractor's credit card.

mike

 

[Stuart]

Did you get their insurance info? I would have called the police and have the highest ranking person show up with the officer- there is a report of the situation even though you have the video.
I would start at $50 per hour at least, I had some work done on some equipment recently and was charged $90ph. So get what you can cause you will be touching this stuff up for a month.
The tar really gets every where. I bet when you go back to the wash tomorrow you will see more tar that was missed. Not that it was over looked but I know when I have a filthy grease bay I can spend what seems forever cleaning it out. Then I come back and notice what I missed due to the initial scale of a mess I thought it was clean.

About the credit card, I believe you would not be able to bill the card unless stated for the customer to read or signage stating no tar AND you were somehow able to retrieve their info-with PCI compliance this would be difficult I think. They could deny the charge and probably win.
These are my initial thoughts.

 

[Randy]

Mike,
Been there and done that. Not with tar but with paint and sheet rock mud, the type that is waterproof.

Always and I mean always call the police and get a case number and report, I know it’s over kill but it will help your case. We always ask for restitution, sometimes we get a check from the court.

$20 an hour is nowhere near enough. We charge $45 to start the car to go out on a call, $65 an hour on site.

We always contact parent company and talk to the owner or president. Don’t waste your with calling or E-mailing the foreman, start at the top. We also try to get there bonding insurance company information, they normally won’t give it to you. In the State of Washington you can go on line and get that information.

You might have to go to small claims court so keep good records, pictures, video etc.

 

[rph9168]

Not having a police report will complicate the resolution but not make it impossible. What happened borders on vandalism or intentional destruction of property in some jurisdictions. I once was involved in a similar problem that Randy experienced, not tar but road paint and sealant and construction materials. The guy had a company that resurfaced and lined parking lots It did not go to court to resolve it but it took threat of a lawsuit to get action. One break we had was that the contractor did quite a bit of work for cities and the state and may have jeopardized future business if it went to court. In that case it would have helped have a police report which they didn't have. If you get no satisfaction you need to have your lawyer contact them to show you mean business. Ultimately I would not hesitate to go to small claims court if they resist settling. In some states lawyers are not allowed in small claims court. You might want to check on that.

 

[mjwalsh]

Did you get their insurance info? I would have called the police and have the highest ranking person show up with the officer- there is a report of the situation even though you have the video.
I would start at $50 per hour at least, I had some work done on some equipment recently and was charged $90ph. So get what you can cause you will be touching this stuff up for a month.
The tar really gets every where. I bet when you go back to the wash tomorrow you will see more tar that was missed. Not that it was over looked but I know when I have a filthy grease bay I can spend what seems forever cleaning it out. Then I come back and notice what I missed due to the initial scale of a mess I thought it was clean.

About the credit card, I believe you would not be able to bill the card unless stated for the customer to read or signage stating no tar AND you were somehow able to retrieve their info-with PCI compliance this would be difficult I think. They could deny the charge and probably win.
These are my initial thoughts.

Stuart & others,

Good points. From past experience, there is a good chance I would be wasting my time with the police because since it was not a case of leaving the scene before we got to them. Our police department tends to then turn it over to the city attorney & he would tend to say that it is a civil matter. That is why for the less than $400 that I already laid out in the email with supporting documents ... it seems like the most efficient way would be to just go through the process & file in small claims court. The most efficient way to show in court ... I am still debating on. I probably should take 2 laptops with me just in case one malfunctioned (bad luck) & test the playback before arriving. I am betting that they will not even show up at the court & just receive the judgement & ignore it. That is why I am thinking that the license from the state could be come into play. I would think it should deservedly cost them substantially more if they did that same as losing in court. Court filing costs added etc. Failure to pay a judgement could add interest ... you'd think.

Like Randy said may be able to get to their bonding company to let them know. It seems like it is sometimes hard to find a person who actually has a sense of the gravity & potential gravity of the situation. Underwriters (the bonding company) could potentially talk some sense into the immature bad judgement characters. The world of certified mail ... having court papers on people is not something that I enjoy doing. I don't believe in being a pacifist either. At this point they acknowledged that they received my email breaking down the very reasonable less than $400 total bill last Friday. Other than that "No Response" so far. The longer they wait before giving an appropriate response ... could actually work in our favor it seems.

The builder construction company on their website appears like they specialize in McMansion type of homes in the half million dollar range. They do not answer their phone but rely on voicemail & pick & choose who they have call back if they do ... to answer Randy's suggestion of talking to the person most in charge (president of the company).

mike

 

[cwguy.com]

I would never depend on internet access working. Kick it old school with pictures and maybe diagrams. No video or computer.... Your not the only case and whoever is seeing the cases probably will not want to watch your video.

FWIW I would write it off.... I hate waisting time. Of course that is what they know you will do!

 

[MEP001]

If you're that worried about your video failing to play on your laptop, burn it on a regular DVD+R as a standard disk. They'll have the equipment to play it. There's plenty of freeware stuff for making a video disk.

I wouldn't just drop it. It doesn't sound like something I'd want to have happen, and certainly not twice. At least a half-dozen times I've tracked down a company via surveillance video and contacted them about something an employee has done. It's never been bad enough to try and get restitution (except for the guy who completely filled the dumpster barely an hour after it was emptied), but I've always told them that the employee was not welcome on the property ever again or he'd be removed by police and his company's vehicle towed at their expense.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I would contact the higher ups and as civily as possible explain how we all sometimes deal with inconsiderate employees making stupid decisions that hurt our company's reputation and I am sure that is not how they wish to be known and operate and certainly would like to make things right both with regard to remedying the current situation and prtevent future situations.

If that doesn't work post You tube videos of what their people did. Let them know you posted.

 

[JMMUSTANG]

Call your Insurance Co. and see what they can do with the info. you have.
See if your coverage would cover anything like this, if so they might contact the company that did this and start proceeding against them.

 

[Stuart]

Document, Document and Document everything. Each phone call with time and #, who you talked to, what was said, each letter and copies w/return receipts....ETC.

 

[bigleo48]

MJ,

Hindsight is 50/50, but this is what I would have done;

I would have parked in front of their vehicle and not let them leave the site until both the police and a high ranking company official is present. I would have also called the ministry of the environment and told the police that this was illegal dumping in both the sanitary and the storm sewers. On one occasion in the past, I got restitution on the spot when the police saw parts of the video.

Once I took a customer to small claims court after an incident. The guy was there with his mother vacuuming quarts of oil out of his truck. As you may have guessed, the guy was a deadbeat, but the mother wasn't. When I named her in the suit, it was quickly resolved after the preliminary meeting with the court. That's when I showed pictures from multiple angles and had the video they didn't want to watch. On a funny note, the guy said "it wasn't posted that you can't vacuum oil", to which I responded "It's not posted "please don't hold up this bank" at my local branch...does that make it OK?" He then said, "that's obviously illegal", to which I said "So is illegal dumping of oil". He replied "I didn't know that" and as you may have guessed I replied "ignorance of the laws isn't an excuse".

So in the end, it was a good learning experience. I also agree with others that $20 is way too low. At least $50, plus materials.

Finally, I can't emphasize enough the value of a license place camera. Mine was $200 and it has allowed me to catch every single idiot that has done something stupid at my wash. I should kiss the thing every day. One early Saturday morning last summer, a guy washed a whole case of broken beer bottles out of the bed of his truck, all over my parking lot . I got the plate, called the cops who called him. He was right over and spent the better part of the morning sweeping my lot! That was priceless!!

 

[slamdvw]

Quote: "I got the plate, called the cops who called him. He was right over and spent the better part of the morning sweeping my lot! That was priceless!!"

Now THAT would have made an interesting YouTube video!

 

[bigleo48]

Quote: Now THAT would have made an interesting YouTube video!

It would have...never thought of it That was almost a year ago so the video is long gone. I never saved it for the police as they didn't visit, only called him. When he called, I gave him a complete and accurate description of his visit, he didn't ask to look at it and confessed over the phone.

Anyway, best $200 I ever spent at the wash. Has saved me thousands. One day I am invest in the software that creates a database of all the plates so I can better understand my customer base and their habits. However, even without the software, it has helped me realize how many cars visit and what each and every visit is worth to me ($7.52 on avg if I recall correctly).

 

[Greg Pack]

I have a sign at the point of purchase (6" above the meter doors") that plainly state forbidden activities, including equipment washoff. I figure it makes it much harder for someone to argue about that "they didn't know they couldn't do that"

I would be fair with reimbursement, and really not attempt to be punitive in my billable hours. I often thought I would ask for "retail meter time" for such offenses as well as any additional needed cleanup supplies at my cost and offer the cleanup labor for free. My argument would be that I'm charging the offender the same thing it would have cost them to clean up behind themselves. To me this seems reasonable. At my wash which is 2.00/3:30 that works out to 35.00/hour

In the end, the easiest thing I've found to do is tell equipment washers to go somewhere else. It makes life much easier and does not impact the bottom line much at all.

 

[mjwalsh]

Letter of Support???

Since I was a long term (over 15 years) member of the ICA, do you think they or any other Association could write a letter of support based on the facts that I have given in the event this goes to the Burleigh County States Attorney as a misdemeanor charge. A very experienced contractor this morning very emphatically told me to not mess around with small claims court at all ... but to persist with the position that the company actually did violate the law. In my opinion, myself & my two employees prevented a felony committed on their part instead of the existing potential misdemeanor. This is based on if some customers drove in & would have unwittingly not noticed the tar & been dressed nice & with new carpet & upholstery with there newer vehicle!!!

Keep in mind the developer-construction company has not even made any good faith effort as to what they did with our two new extra long hogs hair brushes with handles ($155 actual cost) that they took with them ... on the basis of their being able to clean up the densely tar filled bristles. Over 4 weeks now has passed. As mentioned in my previous posts on the incident ... the company has had more than adequate notification.

The good news is that there has been a case number assigned for the incident & it is still open. The bad news is that no one from the local police department has set up a time for me to make sure they see the eight 12 megapixel pictures & the clear lengthy DVR recording. Several calls & notifications have been made so it not like I have not tried. I have both the pics & the recording on a DVD with additional 2 DVD copies. I tried to show the evidence to a former assistant states attorney now working at the city attorney's office & he refused to look at even a printed out picture of the tar situation left. BTW, he was behind a bullet proof glass. The pics were taken while the perpetrators were still there.

Financially, I could walk away from this but it seems like it sets a horrific precedent to allow. Not just self service car washes but for businesses & property managers in general. Not just local but nationwide for that matter. Thanks for the input so far & I am hoping for further useful comments. It seems like if I hire an attorney ... it is possible the attorney would not be familiar enough with the car wash format ... & do more damage than good.

mike

 

[Kevin James]

Mike the problem is you’re too nice of a guy and these people are taking advantage of you. It all goes back to RESPECT!! There isn’t much anymore. The owner of the construction company should make it right. But it’s pretty obvious that that isn’t going to happen so it’s time not so nice. Why not take him to small claims court? Take him to court and when you win put judgment again him and it’ll show up on his credit report, It’s always fun to screw someone’s credit. What’s the name of the construction company? Find out who his bonding agent is, he’ll go ballistic if you file a complaint against his bond. You might not get any money from him but it’s nice to screw with them.

 

[mjwalsh]

Bonding Insurance Information???

Mike the problem is you’re too nice of a guy and these people are taking advantage of you. It all goes back to RESPECT!! There isn’t much anymore. The owner of the construction company should make it right. But it’s pretty obvious that that isn’t going to happen so it’s time not so nice. Why not take him to small claims court? Take him to court and when you win put judgment again him and it’ll show up on his credit report, It’s always fun to screw someone’s credit. What’s the name of the construction company? Find out who his bonding agent is, he’ll go ballistic if you file a complaint against his bond. You might not get any money from him but it’s nice to screw with them.

Kevin James,

Can you or someone else give me some clues as to how to get a hold of his bonding agent or at least their specific bonding agent's name? Based on the little ups & downs over the years with insurance adjusters ... I have never experienced one that would totally ignore 100% evidence such as what we have. If someone want to PM or email some specific techniques for locating the bonding agent if they prefer over just posting ... by all means PLEASE DO SO!!!


I have gone to great lengths so far to not broadcast their name ... to avoid some lawyer having an argument that I went out of my way to ruin their reputation. Looking back, if I had called the police &/or detained them even longer than we did ... based on my understanding of concrete truck scheduling etc ... they could say that we unnecessarily kept them ($$$) at our place even though we had more than enough evidence. The construction workers were somewhat screaming that they were being called urgently by their foreman. Also, I tend not to call 911 unless it is an actual emergency ... the other police telephone number usually takes possibly an hour or more so the mitigating (car wash downtime prevention) clean up would have been delayed & made matters worse. The only additional evidence that the police would have over what I have for them would be the fact that they might have got some on themselves checking it out. Their is still some physical evidence of the thickness & nature of the tar on a garbage barrel so they do not have to rely only on the the DVD (start mess to finish of the cleanup process) along with its 8 highly detailed 12 megapixel pics from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3.

mike

 

[mjwalsh]

Thanks everyone for the moral support. A little over eight weeks later, the construction - development company did come forward to pay us close enough to the actual costs. As far as I know they after 6 weeks got a phone call from one of the assistant city attorneys to resolve if possible. "Whew" for both parties as far as we are concerned!

I honestly believe that proper "rule of law" property owner's protection was relevant in this case more than just some type of civil litigation required by small claims or whatever. That basic legal principle made it so a bit of persistence with local law enforcement is what tipped the scale for the local authorities & the company to finally understand that a possible misdemeanor could be charged by our local county's states attorney.

I know that there are some ethical understanding discussions on how to handle these property damage situations across the USA in general & I am confident that the letters that I wrote won't be used to the detriment of other local car washes or even car washes "ugh" nationwide. Maybe even other countries could even be affected by how individual localities within our USA decide to apply or not apply the force of the law in light of 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt property damage evidence.

For the less cynical among us ... at some point ... resources relating to stewardship of tax dollars could play a part in these situations....

It did take the local authorities some time to look at the 5 hour relevant surveillance footage & 8 hi res twelve megapixal pictures on the DVD that I provided.

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com

 

[mmurra]

Mike - I think BigLeo, Randy and others have the rignt approach - firm action now. Move ahead with contacting the bigs and then quickly file in small claims. This behavior cannot stand, in our industry. We must vigorously prosecute offenders, like these idiots. When you get justice (you will), be sure to make it public, so that others know. Fear of reprisal is a strong motivator for men, unfortunately! We alll have too much invested and work too hard to let it go unresolved. Mark

 

[mjwalsh]

Mike - I think BigLeo, Randy and others have the rignt approach - firm action now. Move ahead with contacting the bigs and then quickly file in small claims. This behavior cannot stand, in our industry. We must vigorously prosecute offenders, like these idiots. When you get justice (you will), be sure to make it public, so that others know. Fear of reprisal is a strong motivator for men, unfortunately! We alll have too much invested and work too hard to let it go unresolved. Mark

Thanks Mark

It came down to whether we want these types of extra severe type of incidents to have the reality of criminal prosecution vs just civil ... such as small claims court. Level of proof & also showing maliciousness are factors as to where the accountability for their actions eventually occurs. It also comes down to having quality elected officials ... who can justifiably do something to also have an impact on how law enforcement & states attorneys respond.

This specific incident is behind us now ... but it is something to learn from.

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com