Your Thoughts On City Complaints of Sand

[bigleo48]

All,

So last week a city employee showed up in huff and starting laying into my employee about a blockage down the road in the sanitary sewer. They said they traced it back to us. They also went next door and accused the owner of the Oil Change biz next door of releasing oil into the system. I guess the guy was a real A hole. The Oil Change guy had his environmental services people who pump out his waste check and they said he was fine and that the oil likely came from the Shell oil distribution warehouse down the road. He also mentioned that the city guy taking the samples didn't seem to know what he was doing.


Anyway, I get an email from the city saying they are going to bill me for the clean up and the following "We also collected samples from the two discharging manholes at your property line (wash bays and automatic drive thru). Preliminary analyses of these samples show Total Suspended Solids (TSS) results of >500 mg/l and >1000 mg/l being discharged into the sanitary collection system. The Sewer Use By-law (12-91) limit for TSS is 350 mg/l. This is a non-compliant discharge with the Sewer Use By-law. This also indicates your interceptors are not working efficient and are overdue for a clean-out. There is additional testing we are completing on the samples we collected and once all the results are complete we will forward a copy of the results."

Anyway, I find it hard to believe that we don't have a problem for 8 years and now all of a sudden down the road there is a sand build up!? Our SS bays all have large sediment pits, that flow into an oil and grease separator, then to the sanitary sewer.

Any ideas on how to best deal with this. How to I know its all my sand? I can I be sure tests were taken properly?

Regards...Big Leo

 

[Waxman]

You could provide them with receipts from your periodic pit cleanouts, or some such record of your upkeep with system cleaning.

How much was the bill for cleanup?

Was there any provisions in your permit (from the city) when you built that outlined these regulations you are supposedly in violation of?

Sounds bogus to me. There is no way to say if it was all your sand. They are looking for a scapegoat and have chosen your wash.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If you think the testing near your site was not accurate take your own samples and have them tested. If they test differently then bring this to their attention and ask for a re test with "Split Samples" .

Also ask for detailed test results including "Chain of Custody" .

There results may or may not be accurate. The city people are often not well versed in this type of thing.

Are there seperate storm and sanitary sewers in your area?

 

[bigleo48]

You could provide them with receipts from your periodic pit cleanouts, or some such record of your upkeep with system cleaning.

How much was the bill for cleanup?

Was there any provisions in your permit (from the city) when you built that outlined these regulations you are supposedly in violation of?

Sounds bogus to me. There is no way to say if it was all your sand. They are looking for a scapegoat and have chosen your wash.

No bill yet...

 

[bigleo48]

If you think the testing near your site was not accurate take your own samples and have them tested. If they test differently then bring this to their attention and ask for a re test with "Split Samples" .

Also ask for detailed test results including "Chain of Custody" .

There results may or may not be accurate. The city people are often not well versed in this type of thing.

Are there seperate storm and sanitary sewers in your area?

Thanks Earl...yes there are separate storm and sanitary sewer.

I guess what gets me is that I would think that the blockage would be worst the closest to my wash if that was indeed the problem.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

Ouch.
Serious question, do you think its possible that it came from your wash?

Where the sewer discharge leaves my property it is a 4" pipe (I think. might be 5 or 6"). Then it enters the borough's pipe, which is about a foot or 2 in diameter. I cant conceive of anything coming out of my wash and creating a blockage in that pipe.

I agree with Earl, I'd want details of how they traced it to me and what procedures the person who is certified in said tracing/testing followed, because I dont believe it came from me so theyre going to have to prove it if they expect me to pay.

 

[sprocket]

Don't they charge for handling you sewer every month? Thats what they get paid for. If they are not going to take care of the sewage then what do they charge you for?If they take care of everyone elses solids, I don't see how yours would be any different.Just a thought.

 

[pitzerwm]

Here they found oil in the sewer, they started blaming everyone on the line, lucky, I was on the other side of the junction. Eventually, they ended up at the Mayor's auto parts rebuilding shop.

 

[soapy]

First thing I would do is sample your grease traps yourself. Sand tends to be heavier than regular dirt and almost always stays in the first pit. The sediment that ends up in the grease traps is generally very fine dirt, much lighter than sand. Get a scoop of the grease trap dirt and dry it then check its consistency. Sand would have to be in your grease traps before it could get into the sewer line. Spring is the time of year that sand is most prevalent here due to all the sand they dump on the road during winter storms. If your drain pipe in your grease trap extends down into the grease trap 18 to 24 inches there is no way the sand will float into the sewer line. It will plug the pipe first and stop letting water flow.

 

[Bill Manke]

I would come back at them as strong as they came at you. I would request the person higher up than the person you are dealing with and let them know what the inspector did when he came out to your place. I would tell them about the additional test that you have done and you are wondering who is going to pay for the wasted test.I had a similiar situation where a inspector came in and insisted that we were putting sand down the drain and that was plugging there line. Come to find out they had lost a lift pump and it just wasn't pumping any sewage down the line.

 

[Whale of a Wash]

Unless you are sewer jetting your pits completely out to the street the last article coming from the wash would be the sand. Sand is the heaviest and would never make it out there. I asked our city sanitary waste guys, about oil once, and they told me the volume of body and hair oil would be so much they wouldn't notice motor oil, and that they skim all the oil off, and burn it to heat the incoming waste to make it decompose faster. In our city the storm sewer runs along the side of the street and the sanitary sewer down the middle of the street, and during heavy rains if the streets flood the water also goes down the sanitary sewer thru the holes in the cover. We have guys always out there sewer jetting and never by my washes, moving dirt down the line. Remember the sanitary sewer is mostly grey water and water from washing machines and such contains dirt and sand, or the same from the shower. That is why many washes recycle --because the water is fairly clean as it leaves the wash.

 

[bigleo48]

Thanks everyone...a lot of good points, some of which I incorporated into my response to the city and is as follows;


First, I would like to say that both my attendant and the owner of Oil Change, Joe Blow, were very upset at the way your staff presented themselves. The person who visited was belligerent and accusing. Why would your staff be so confrontational with my attendant!? He is there to keep the site clean and help customers. This type of problem is not his responsibility. Your staff should first understand who they are talking to before the conversation begins. He would have been happy to connect the city with me or forward any messages and concerns, as he did.

I did call our pump out provider and they are scheduling the work. However my tanks are less than 1/3 full...they are 6 ft deep and on average only 12 to 16 inches of sand in them. Our records show that the last time they were pumped out was last late last September which is typical before the winter and we check our tanks every month. However, with the milder than usual winter, the city has spread less sand than usual which explains the lower levels this year. I (and they) also find it hard to believe that so much sand can pass through four chambers in a system engineered and then approved by the city, and why is it now coming to light after 8 years in service. Your fine grit sand that you spread on the road is the heaviest thing in our tanks and can be difficult to pump out and requires a pump truck with substantial lift, so it would be the last thing coming out of our pipes due to the weight. I would also expect our smaller pipes to clog first and then just outside our property, before they would start clogging the larger sanitary sewer pipes down the road. But they have not ever clogged. I also believe that it is an assumption to think that it is all our sand. Sure perhaps a very small amount sand may escape, but are you telling me that nobody has put a grain of sand down the sanitary sewer along our lines before and during our eight years of service? That line has been tapped several times with all the new construction in the area and along those roads. Also, if we are allowed 350 mg/l, then how much of the sand removed is from allowable discharge? I would expect that to be part of the $32,000 a year I pay in property taxes. I also heard that Wal-Mart had an emergency pump out recently. So does the city actually believe that billing me for the entire cleanup is accurate?

The pictures do not tell me which sample is which and the sand pile has no reference for scale and so it's hard to tell how much that actually is. There is also no mention of the amount the city plans to bill me?

I feel than many assumptions are being made by the city and so we will be getting our effluent tested also and I am requesting detailed test results and a "Chain of Custody".

 

[pitzerwm]

If you haven't already sent it, have an attorney send it. That should be the end of it.

I once had my attorney send a letter to the CEO of a regional bank, trust me the level of crap flowing downhill is greatly increased. Well worth the $$

 

[bigleo48]

Today I receives a $3k bill from the city. It has no information except to say service call and "removal of sand/debris from lines and manhole structures".

I have send an email to the department head with the following;

_____________________
Today I received an invoice for a sewer service call for $2724.38 (see attached copy). This was a service call initiated by the City, not myself, I had not indicated any issues at the noted property.

From my conversations (voice and email) with ****, it seems our wash is completely to blame for a sand buildup in the sanitary sewer system along **** and *** Roads’. To this I would like to make the following comments:

Your bill lacks any detailed information. So I have no idea how this amount was determined or when the service was performed, as there is no date or “Chain of Custody”

How can the city positively determine that 100% of the sand and debris in the system came from our wash? Your sewer system was in place long before we built. During this time other local companies have used this sewer and much construction has taken place in this area. Do you not think, that at the very least, a portion of this is not from our wash? I believe that a substantial amount of sand and debris was not from our Wash since **** mentioned that the large sanitary pipes where almost blocked. I find this interesting as we have never had a blockage at our much smaller discharge pipes and they have never been jetted in our eight years of service! So why are the larger pipes, further away blocking when the closer to your reported source and smaller ones are not? I was also informed that 350ml of TSS is permitted to be discharged. If so, how much of the sand removed is part of the maximum amount discharged over eight years, that should be part of the $32k/yr we pay in taxes along with thousands of dollars in sewer charges?

 

[bigleo48]

"part 2"

Any solid separator cannot practically be 100% efficient. So, why after all these years has this now become a problem? Does the City not inspect these systems on some kind of a regular basis where this problem can be properly indentified? **** informed me that this was part of a six year sewer cleaning program, so if that is the case, why was I not informed six years ago that the amount of sand allegedly coming from our wash was a problem? Nothing here has changed. We have had our sand separator tanks emptied on a ‘as needed’ basis, which turns out to be about semi-annually, depending on the amount of sand dispensed by the City (weather). Without any blockage at our end, we had our tanks pumped when they were about 75% full. The city has now asked us to increase this due to your findings, which we have (now it will be three times per annum).

*** also reported to me that *** inspected our oil and grease separator and that it was overdue for cleaning. The oil and grease separator is not required to be there and we installed it out of our own concern that oil and grease might find its way from the cars into the sanitary sewer system. That has never been the case. But in the end, it’s not required. It was scheduled to be cleaned this Spring with the other tanks in the bays.

Finally, I would like to remind the City that this is YOUR SAND! The sand that the Works Department spreads on our roads gets into everything and obviously sticks to the cars…where some are cleaned at our Wash. This is not soaps, or waxes that we generate, but grit the city generates. Over the years we have spends countless of thousands of dollars properly dealing with the sand that originates from the city!

I believe that the city has made many assumptions here, therefore I would like the city to reconsider this bill.

 

[Waxman]

Good letter. A bit long, but I understand why.

Your best point is that it is the city's sand in the first place as well as the fact that your far smaller pipes in the wash never clogged.

Good job and good luck. Your fightin' city hall, son. Best get yer mind right.

 

[pitzerwm]

Doesn't Canada have "Due process"? You have to prove stuff here, you can't "claim" anything. Whatever, its going to cost you an attorney, hope you are sleeping with one.

 

[dewey9876]

Good luck, please keep us updated.

 

[Washmee]

You have to remember who you are dealing with here. Most government bodies don't really care what it costs to do any type of job, because they don't have any skin in the game. If a project has cost over runs, who cares, just send the taxpayers the bill, they will pay. It appears that the sewer authority thinks it is the judge, jury and jailer in these types of matters and they will do everything possible to deny you any type of due process. I had similar thing happen a few years ago at my wash. The Local sewer authority was jetting sanitary lines and opened the manhole on my property. When the crew supervisor saw the soapy discharge from my drain he ran up to me and told me he was shutting me down for "Illegal Sewer Discharge" into the sanitary sewer. I asked this brain surgeon just where he though my discharge should go, he wasn't quite sure. I asked him to call his boss and after a 2 minute conversation, he walked away without saying a word.

 

[rph9168]

Tell them to pound sand!