I have been reviewing some new chemical companies for my pre-soak. I am now using a system that requires you drop in a 50lb box of powder every few days. One of the concepts that I am struggling with is managing the pre-soak drums when they are near finished for the chemical companies that offer already mixed presoak or companies that you mix your own 55 gallon drum. If I am leaving for the day and the 55 gallon drum is nearly empty, with some companies I need to make a new batch of product, with others I need to replace the depleted barrel with a new barrel then take the remaining product and dump into 5 gallon bucket. Is there an easier way? I have a busy wash and my equipment is a pre-soak hog so this can be a real hassle doing this so often. Any tips or tricks in this management would be helpful.
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Managing 55 Gallon Drums of Presoak, Easier Way?
- Thread starter Buzzie8
- Start date
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
AFAIAC Powder is a PITA. Not sure if you are asking about a tunnel, SS, or IBA.
Ditch the powder. Problem solved.
Ditch the powder. Problem solved.
As Far As I Am Concerned
How about a separate 50 gallon mixing container and transfer pump?
if you really want to stay with powder you could make it easier. At one time I was going to build a little module to take care of this. A solenoid, transfer pump, and couple of float switches, plus a simple PLC program. Dump the powder and push a button. The mixing tank would fill, turn on the paddle mixer for "x' amount of time, and finally transfer to the drum that the equipment pulled out of. This would eliminate drum handling and keep the product very consistent.
How about a separate 50 gallon mixing container and transfer pump?
if you really want to stay with powder you could make it easier. At one time I was going to build a little module to take care of this. A solenoid, transfer pump, and couple of float switches, plus a simple PLC program. Dump the powder and push a button. The mixing tank would fill, turn on the paddle mixer for "x' amount of time, and finally transfer to the drum that the equipment pulled out of. This would eliminate drum handling and keep the product very consistent.
One of my "tilting at windmills" aspects is anyone using 55 gallon drums. When diesel fuel is close to $4.00 per gallon, why are people shipping drums mostly filled with water all over the country? I believe that in 5 to 15 years the super or hyper concentrates will be the norm. If you want to ditch the drums explore the suppliers who don't use as much water.
soapy
Senior Member
I went to the local farm store and bought some 65 gallon tanks with a large screw on lid on the top. That gives me a 10 gallon cushion to work with. You could go with a larger tank to give you more cushion. For me the 10 gallons is enough for a couple of days usually. Powders still seem to be the cheapest way to buy presoaks if you don't mind mixing yourself.
Well I guess this isn't the first time my superior logic took a wrong turn in Poughkepsi. Sorry I didn't comprehend your situation. In retrospect, if you are using the top shelf stuff and have this situation, you're in a unique situation. That is you are pushing the envelope. I'll just sit on the sidelines and see what I can learn from the other posters. Lord knows there is always room for more information.
I probably wasn't clear on the problem. Up until recently I have been using a powder from a top "blending" company. They clean well, but I am finding them to become crazy expensive with many increases in their prices over the past few years. I have so many chemical guys calling on me that I decided to take a second look at them. Some have 55 gallon drums of presoak as ready to use, others have mix their powder and some booster and then you have 55 gallons ready to use. What I find as problematic is that if you have 7 gallons left in your tank and you leave for the day you tap another 55 gallon drum then need to leave the other drum sitting for a few days, then need to take the remainder and pour it into the new drum (all a hassle over the "blending" company). Over the years, on this website, I have found interesting tricks to problems. Maybe, and probably, this is the nature of using 55 gallon ready made presoak, but you would think some chemical manufacturer would come up with a solution to this.
2Biz
Thread Killer!
Instead of pouring your left overs in a new drum, which would probably be hard to do like you mentioned, you could use pressure to transfer that 7 or so gallons left over.
I recently switched to a 55 gal drum of winter FB mix (Cost effective), but my ER is too small to keep it there. So I store it off site and transfer using 5 gallon containers. It was easy to plumb the the 55 gal drum with the necessary fittings to pump the contents with air pressure. All that is needed is about 5 psi. With a 1/2" hose, it only takes about a minute to pump 5 gallons. And if you make the pickup tube just right, you can get nearly all the chemical out of the 55 gal drum.
I recently switched to a 55 gal drum of winter FB mix (Cost effective), but my ER is too small to keep it there. So I store it off site and transfer using 5 gallon containers. It was easy to plumb the the 55 gal drum with the necessary fittings to pump the contents with air pressure. All that is needed is about 5 psi. With a 1/2" hose, it only takes about a minute to pump 5 gallons. And if you make the pickup tube just right, you can get nearly all the chemical out of the 55 gal drum.
Mac, your logic makes no sense. I use 55 gallon drums and they are super concentrated. Just because a product is packaged in a 55 gallon drum, doesn't mean that it is watered down. I prefer to buy my super concentrated products 55 gallons at a time.
I believe just about every compound is "watered down" to some extent just to get the products to play well with each other at concentrate and get the viscosity right. And yes, we are paying for the handling of that water. It's fine by me for the convenience factor.
One regional blender in the NW I know of has actually started shipping their product in full size containers and just doesn't add the water. So you may get a 55 with 20 gallons of product in it. The customer adds the water when they receive it. If the customer is intelligent enough to truly understand what they are doing it can save some money. However, I know some in the business who would think they are getting ripped off. And then some just don't want to hassle with it. They would rather pay an extra $10 in shipping then add .50 worth of water to a drum
To me bottom line in the pricing scheme as RPH has suggested, is cost per car, I don't care what form it comes in, to me priority one is performance, followed by cost per car to pay for that performance. Convenience is third place. If I could find a powder that was the "silver bullet" I'd be mixing it up.
robert roman
Bob Roman
When I worked for a conveyor operator back in late 1960’s near Pittsburgh, we used empty coffee cans to scoop caustic power from a 55-gallon drum. We tossed the power into a tub of hot water and mixed by hand. Then we used mitts to wash cars by hand.
When I operated carwash in the 1990’s, most of the conveyor and in-bay operators I knew of purchased chemical in 55, 30, 10 and 5 gallon containers of mostly liquids, few if any powders. Back then, a popular solution to reduce the amount of handling and disposing of containers was to switch to concentrated liquids.
When I owned a wash, I inherited a regional blender. My chemistry was conventional powders and liquids. I switched the wash over to a national brand, all concentrated liquids. It cost more per gallon but I got more per gallon. No more 55 gallon barrels. The stuff cleaned and brightened better and I got a drier car with less spots. The brand carried chemistry I used as a profit center to help increase my average ticket. Free marketing materials.
Besides co-branding, here is another thing to consider. When I decide to buy something “domestic” today, I usually look first at what women are buying.
Today, women are buying more super concentrated liquid laundry detergents. 2X and 3X concentrated liquids are one half or a third of their former volume and clean the same amount as bulky old packages. Women like concentrates because containers are easier to handle, they save shelf space and can be recycled. Reduced size also reduces packaging and transportation expenses which help manufacturers keep prices lower.
Is super concentrated chemistry no longer a cost effective alternative to powder for carwash operators today?
When I operated carwash in the 1990’s, most of the conveyor and in-bay operators I knew of purchased chemical in 55, 30, 10 and 5 gallon containers of mostly liquids, few if any powders. Back then, a popular solution to reduce the amount of handling and disposing of containers was to switch to concentrated liquids.
When I owned a wash, I inherited a regional blender. My chemistry was conventional powders and liquids. I switched the wash over to a national brand, all concentrated liquids. It cost more per gallon but I got more per gallon. No more 55 gallon barrels. The stuff cleaned and brightened better and I got a drier car with less spots. The brand carried chemistry I used as a profit center to help increase my average ticket. Free marketing materials.
Besides co-branding, here is another thing to consider. When I decide to buy something “domestic” today, I usually look first at what women are buying.
Today, women are buying more super concentrated liquid laundry detergents. 2X and 3X concentrated liquids are one half or a third of their former volume and clean the same amount as bulky old packages. Women like concentrates because containers are easier to handle, they save shelf space and can be recycled. Reduced size also reduces packaging and transportation expenses which help manufacturers keep prices lower.
Is super concentrated chemistry no longer a cost effective alternative to powder for carwash operators today?
Buzzie, I want to make sure that I understand your situation. I'm assuming you are referring to Blendco, a forum advertiser. If so here are a couple of suggestions. I feel I can suggest these because I used to sell their stuff. First, most of, or at least a great percentage, their distributors don't know how to set up and accurately calibrate the system. I had their regional rep show me (I'm in FL) and he was way, way off. Usage was a LOT more than it should have been. Once it is set up it needs to be checked at the minimum twice a year, better every quarter. Your rep should be able to show you how to do this, and he should be coming by there for the twice annual visits. Blendco used to make a really big blending tank, about 60 gallons, that would hold 5 to 8 boxes of powder. If you are getting 55 gallon drums of Blendco and going through it that fast, something is seriously wrong, and you are flushing money down the drain. Sounds like you need to get someone with more knowledge to look at it. Please let us know how you resolve this.
soapy
Senior Member
FOr me powders have proven to be much cheaper. I have used many of the top shelf chemicals but the price raises they have had in the last 2 years seem unjustified to me. I titrate very often and compare what I currently use to the top brands. FOr me my new system is cleaning very well and my price per car is under half of using the top brand stuff. Getting a clean car is the first priority, price second. I don't mind mixing the powders to save this kind of money.
jprb
Member
Buzzie,
Would a siphon hose work? If you have room to leave two barrells in the equipment room, just throw a siphon hose in the barrells and let them even out. When they both get below half, roll the extra barrell up onto a wooden block or ramp and leave it until it empties itself, then replace it with another full barrell.
JPRB
Would a siphon hose work? If you have room to leave two barrells in the equipment room, just throw a siphon hose in the barrells and let them even out. When they both get below half, roll the extra barrell up onto a wooden block or ramp and leave it until it empties itself, then replace it with another full barrell.
JPRB
6t7gto
Member
I use this pump to transfer from one drum to another..
http://www.lowes.com/pd_40506-15649...Ns=p_product_price|0&facetInfo=#prodAnswerTab
http://www.lowes.com/pd_40506-15649...Ns=p_product_price|0&facetInfo=#prodAnswerTab
Mac,
You are correct. I am using Blendco. They clean well but have pushed me over the edge. I found out after I posted this latest post that they now do not even offer free shipping for over 700lbs. I now need to pay $90 additional for shipping surcharge on top of their January price increase. I'm tired of it and I am hell bent on getting something in that works as well and does not continue to increase my costs. I have been able to replace everything so far but their presoak. I titrate often and have their system tuned up correctly. The reason I made this post is because when I am getting to the bottom of a 55 gallon drum of some of the new stuff I am trying it is hassle changing barrels and dumping the old barrel into the new once there is room. I want to try a couple low PH presoaks and see what results I get as well. Blendco seems to have an arrogance about them anymore. I raised my prices once in 7 years they do it annually. They are good but not that good.
rph9168
Carwashguy
If you are using Blendco and are getting good results with your presoak I have a feeling you are using a strong alkaline solution from the mixing tank. While that gets you good results it also can be costly.
If you really want to go to a cost effective presoak and need a strong alkaline product for cleaning you might take a look at a tire cleaner. There are many good ones on the market from most distributors. Tire cleaners tend to be fairly concentrated and are higher in alkalinity than most presoaks. Some do not foam well so you might try a foaming tire cleaner to produce a better show. In either case you will probably be able to use less and not run out as often. Make sure you calculate your use cost. Tire cleaners may appear to cost more by the drum but you will be able to use less.
If you really want to go to a cost effective presoak and need a strong alkaline product for cleaning you might take a look at a tire cleaner. There are many good ones on the market from most distributors. Tire cleaners tend to be fairly concentrated and are higher in alkalinity than most presoaks. Some do not foam well so you might try a foaming tire cleaner to produce a better show. In either case you will probably be able to use less and not run out as often. Make sure you calculate your use cost. Tire cleaners may appear to cost more by the drum but you will be able to use less.
