Modding an "Old" Mark VII Pump Stand

[2Biz]

I have about a 30 year old (4) bay Mark VII pump stand. For its age, its remarkebly trouble free. In the past (2) years, I've only had to replace (2) FB solenoids. Most of the solenoids look to be original. I've done other maintenence to the stand, but changing out a solenoid leaves a lot to be desired...

I am putting together a parts list to change the FB and Pre-soak solenoids to the Kip Manifold style solenoids. I will mount them at the end of the pump stand on the wall which will make them much easier to work on (for lots of reasons). These are fed with Flojets, so converting the FB and Pre-Soak won't be an issue...

My question is, has anybody ever moved the Wax and Soap solenoids since they are vaccum fed to the pump? If I add two more (4) solenoid manifolds on the wall at the end of the pump stand, I'm wondering if there will be any issues drawing wax or soap into the HP pump...I could run 3/8 poly from the solenoids over to the flow meters...The farthest the soap or wax would have to go from the solenoid to the flow meters is about 8'. I haven't ever had a Soap or Wax solenoid fail. But I think you can see from the picture how much a pain it would be to change one out. Changing the FB or Pre-Soak solenoids is bad enough...

In case your wondering....Getting a new pump stand is out of the question!

 

[MEP001]

What a mess...

I helped someone do a similar change-over. It was MUCH worse, with every individual solenoid for each function with its own flowmeter and regulator mounted on the pump stand, and it was a nightmare to replace even the smallest thing. We stripped everything off the stands except the pumps and motors, then I made copper manifolds pipe that ran the length of the stands for the hot and cold water with shut-offs for each. The soap and wax were put on Kip solenoid manifolds with no adjustments or flow-meters - ideally, if everything is the same, the pumps will all draw the same amount of soap and wax.

I made the pump manifolds like this:

Makes servicing the pump much easier.

This one still has 1/4" tubing fittings for soap and wax, and it works fine because the tubing runs are all short and the same length. I used 3/8" tubing from the solenoid manifolds to the pumps because they ran the length of 9 stands, almost 20 feet to the farthest one.

 

[cantbreak80]

Oh brother…what have I created???
I used to make a small fortune re-plumbing those old nightmares. (You know how to make a small fortune working on car washes? Start with a large fortune!)

You will have great difficulties getting soap and wax to draw if you mount the solenoid manifolds above the fluid level in your tanks.

I had the best results by abandoning the Mark VII soap and wax compartments and installing small (5 gallon) SS tanks on the wall…5-6’ off the floor…with 511 hydrominders and KIP manifolds. Lose the Dwyer flow meters and go directly to the pump inlet. Then, run your 6 conductor cables from the J-boxes and the ¼” poly to the pump inlets.

While you’re at it, consider re-plumbing the pump inlets to ½”…otherwise you’ll likely have to throttle the ball valve to draw soap and wax…even with the high-mounted tanks.

Wanna picture? Tell me how you get it to show up on the posting. I always get the “click to view” thing.

 

[MEP001]

Tell me how you get it to show up on the posting.

Use an external hosting site (I use imageshack.us, free to register) and use the "Insert Image" button above the typing text box here to paste the direct link.

I've never had issues with solenoids above the soap/wax tanks. Once the lines are primed, it should make no difference how high the solenoids are above the tanks. The one I helped retrofit had one large, long tank with all the liquids, including the hot water, at the same level. Everything worked perfectly.

 

[cantbreak80]

Thanks MEP001...

Here's a pair that's about 18 years old. So troublefree the dust and dirt are fingerprint free.

 

[2Biz]

Oh brother…what have I created???

Do you think I'm a glutten for punishment?!?!?!

I used to make a small fortune re-plumbing those old nightmares. (You know how to make a small fortune working on car washes? Start with a large fortune!)

I really love your sense of humor!

You will have great difficulties getting soap and wax to draw if you mount the solenoid manifolds above the fluid level in your tanks.

Thats what I figured. I was going to install the two solenoid manifolds inline or lower than the outlets on the tanks. I'm trying to plan all this out so all the solenoids and flojets will fit on one piece of aluminum. The soap and wax will go on the bottom. I was just concerned about the length the soap and wax would have to draw from one end of the pump stand to the pumps.

I had the best results by abandoning the Mark VII soap and wax compartments and installing small (5 gallon) SS tanks on the wall…5-6’ off the floor…with 511 hydrominders and KIP manifolds. Lose the Dwyer flow meters and go directly to the pump inlet. Then, run your 6 conductor cables from the J-boxes and the ¼” poly to the pump inlets.

Plan "B" if Plan "A" doesn't work!

Wanna picture? Tell me how you get it to show up on the posting. I always get the “click to view” thing.

Hey...Look at that! You figured out how to post a picture with Meps help. Linking to pictures off site works so much better. Plus you can make the size you want. I like 600 x 800 resolution the best for posting on this site.

 

[2Biz]

Thanks Mep for the info and pics. I think you guys that have been around awhile know what I'm up against. A little pain now would be a lot of gain later!

I'm still cracking up over CB80's comment about his small fortune! How true!

 

[2Biz]

OK....So I've inflicted yet another cycle of the "Dreaded Sleepless Night Syndrome"

It came to me sometime between 2:00 am and 4:00 am.....I have enough room between the two pump stands to mount the wax and soap solenoid manifolds that would make it very easy to get to. I can mount them inline with the original plumbing and only have 3' of poly tubing going out to the furthest pump....This should work???

CB80, why do you suggest ditching the Dwyer Flow Meters? I'm also assuming the needle valves too?

 

[MEP001]

I realize you didn't ask me directly (even though I suggested the same thing earlier), but unless you're really anal about having the exact same amount of soap and wax on each bay, you don't need flow meters or controls. I've built hundreds of pump stands, completely replumbed dozens of car washes, stripped out at least a half ton of unnecessary brass fittings to remove and uncomplicate things, and almost never used adjustments. If the pumps are all plumbed the same, and all the soap/wax solenoids are the same orifice, they'll draw chemicals at the same rate.

 

[cantbreak80]

Simplicity.

The complexity of the system increases the chances for problems...leaks in the pump's inlet plumbing have resulted in many a misdiagnosis. Every fitting and connection is a potential source for leaks. Chasing pulsation and cavitaion due to tiny air leaks into the suction side of a pump can be very time consuming...and frustrating.

Flow meters and needle valves are unecessary in my opinion...a rather "old school" method to balance the product delivery to each bay...and a potential source of inlet leaks. They don't leak liquid because the solenoid is closed (the finger-on-the-straw thing)...but they can and do leak air into the pump inlet when the system is running.

Supply your wall-mounted solenoid manifolds from your blend tanks.
Supply the pump inlets with 1/4" poly from the s/w manifolds and 1/2" water lines...I know, Cat says inlet supply should be 1.5x the port size. THAT'S why so many pumps have to be throttled to suck soap and wax.
Tip your hydrominders to the desired 1st dilution and fully open the Kip metering valves. Check your delivered dilution ratio at the wand with titration and make changes as you wish...hydrominder tip or, if you must, meter valve adjustment.
The length of poly from the solenoid manifold to the pumps is irrelevant. A few inches difference will not have an appreciable effect.

Just my humble opinion.

Look HERE for a simple pump plumbing design. Water in...chemicals in...by-pass in...water out. Simple!

And...ditto MEP001's post (beat me to it)

 

[cantbreak80]

BTW, 2Biz...and I know this is off topic...but, forget about those ICM Off-Delay timers I mentioned in another post. They time delay a load's restart...not suitable for our secret system needs.

 

[2Biz]

Thanks! When I put in the secret weapon against freezing the FB’s, I was going to use one of those to delay the WM input to the second Idec….But putting in a delay Function Block from WM input will work just as good. I don’t want both FB and Tri-Foam energizing at the same time. UNLESS there is enough room on my Idec to add an expansion module to do the FB? I was thinking you said there wasn’t enough memory?

You guys are a wealth of information. I haven’t been able to find a “Rehabbing a CW 101” instruction book, otherwise I would have started there!
I appreciate you taking the time to help me with this…

What you are telling me makes sense….But to make sure I understand. The supply line to my pumps (from the hot/cold solenoid to the Wax/Soap input manifold) is ¾” brass…If I change this piece of pipe to ½” pipe, this will provide enough restriction/vacuum to draw soap and wax even when opening the cold and hot supply valves to full open? Right now I have to throttle the valves down till the pumps cavitate, then back off till the pump smooths out to get the S/W to draw. That’s why I need the flow meters. Too many variables… Then since all the plumbing would be the same, all I need to do is re-tip the hydrominders to get the desired effect/titration out to the bays? That sounds way too simple!

 

[MEP001]

What you are telling me makes sense….But to make sure I understand. The supply line to my pumps (from the hot/cold solenoid to the Wax/Soap input manifold) is ¾” brass…If I change this piece of pipe to ½” pipe, this will provide enough restriction/vacuum to draw soap and wax even when opening the cold and hot supply valves to full open?

Do you have a check valve on the hot/cold line now? You might need one to create enough restriction. I've never tried without one. I prefer 1/2" Push-Lok hose and fittings which doesn't need hose clamps, and the fittings have a slightly larger ID than a regular barb.

If your lines from the soap/wax solenoids to the pump are going to be long and significantly different in length, I would recommend 3/8" tubing. We used to build individual stands for each bay and line them up with the tank on one end, and the bays at the farthest end would sometimes need the water flow restricted for them to draw the same soap as the others.

 

[2Biz]

Do you have a check valve on the hot/cold line now?

I don't know if you can see in the picture I posted. There are no check valves. The hot and cold both have a gate valve between the three way solenoid and the pvc water supply tubing.

If your lines from the soap/wax solenoids to the pump are going to be long and significantly different in length, I would recommend 3/8" tubing. We used to build individual stands for each bay and line them up with the tank on one end, and the bays at the farthest end would sometimes need the water flow restricted for them to draw the same soap as the others.

I think I have it figured out to install the Wax/Soap Solenoid manifolds right between the two pump stands. The farthest poly line to the pump will be about 3'...

 

[MEP001]

I don't know if you can see in the picture I posted. There are no check valves. The hot and cold both have a gate valve between the three way solenoid and the pvc water supply tubing.

I didn't specifically look for a check valve before - even after I looked, it seems there could easily be a check valve hiding in that mess.

I think I have it figured out to install the Wax/Soap Solenoid manifolds right between the two pump stands. The farthest poly line to the pump will be about 3'...

You can see on my last pic above there are 1/4" tubing lines running from the solenoids mounted in the bottom of the control box down to the pump. There's about 5' of tubing for each bay overall and I don't have to throttle any bays to make them draw. I only brought it up in case you'd have a big difference in length across the stands.

 

[cantbreak80]

Thanks! When I put in the secret weapon against freezing the FB’s, I was going to use one of those to delay the WM input to the second Idec….But putting in a delay Function Block from WM input will work just as good. I don’t want both FB and Tri-Foam energizing at the same time. UNLESS there is enough room on my Idec to add an expansion module to do the FB? I was thinking you said there wasn’t enough memory?

Use a second Idec for the FB with a little logic mod...IF WM O2 is ON, delay initiation for 8 minutes...that timing block is already in the program.

And, control the entire FB system with an FL1E and 3 FL1B expansions...
IF WM O2 is ON...delay switch input for 3 seconds (to prevent switch spinners from filling the protected plumbing).

An "elegant" program could eliminate the 2nd bank of air solenoids for the FB secret weapon??? Hummm.

 

[cantbreak80]

I don't know if you can see in the picture I posted. There are no check valves. The hot and cold both have a gate valve between the three way solenoid and the pvc water supply tubing.

I've never seen a CV on the MVII water supply. The Erie Valve controls the gravity fed hot and cold water. Bush the Erie Valve outlet to 1/2" and leave the gate valves wide open.

 

[2Biz]

Use a second Idec for the FB with a little logic mod...IF WM O2 is ON, delay initiation for 8 minutes...that timing block is already in the program.

And, control the entire FB system with an FL1E and 3 FL1B expansions...
IF WM O2 is ON...delay switch input for 3 seconds (to prevent switch spinners from filling the protected plumbing).

An "elegant" program could eliminate the 2nd bank of air solenoids for the FB secret weapon??? Hummm.

I'm following ya'... If this was created, it would be the only thing like it out there, that I know of. I wonder if it would fall under "almost like the other idea" and be frowned upon?!?!? You HAVE implemented this, right?

I'm going to measure the brass pipe between my Erie Valve Solenoid and the S/W input manifold. It looks like its 3/4, so swapping it out for a 1/2" will be easy. I would still have the gate valves to tweak if necessary.

 

[Randy]

If I were to remodel or rebuild a pump stand I’d eliminate the water supply tanks first. We eliminated the Hot and Cold tanks years ago. We use a Generant water regulator to lower the incoming water pressure, a DEMA 203C injector to pull the soap and wax into the system and 2 Stainless 1/8” KIP solenoid valves for soap and wax. No more leaking or overflowing water supply tanks, no more washed out pump heads, we’ve never had a washed head with this pump set up. We very seldom ever have any pumping equipment problems. We run the pumps at 1500 -1600 psi with a 1505 nozzle.

 

[2Biz]

I've never seen a CV on the MVII water supply. The Erie Valve controls the gravity fed hot and cold water. Bush the Erie Valve outlet to 1/2" and leave the gate valves wide open.

I checked tonight and the brass pipe between the valve and pump is 1/2" npt. The ID is .620"...The ID on 3/8" npt pipe is about .500"..So when you say 1/2", do you mean 1/2" pipe size or pipe with 1/2" ID?


Randy,

Your system looks great and am sure its virtually trouble free. I just don't have the time, $$$ or know how to take on that big of task. If I still have this wash when I retire, it might be something I want to tackle. Then Hopefully I have all three! Time, $$$, and know how!