Boiler Replacement Options - Win a $25 Restuarant Card!

[RockyMountain]

I am looking for opinions on the best option for replacing our boiler! Everyone that responds will be entered into a drawing for a $25 restaurant card to be used at many popular nationwide chains! (Or you can get a free wash at our site!

Details:

I am heating water for 3 self serve bays.

I have an old raypak and a large holding tank that is in the attached picture. I have read many old threads on this topic and have decided that I would like to go with a tankless takagi, rheem or rinnai.

I had 3 different "mechanical" companies take a look yesterday and they are going to give me bids on different options. After visiting with them, I'm not sure any of them truly understand the car wash business and our needs. I explained that I would like 100 degree water and that at super busy/peak times, it's okay if the water drops a few degrees, but the pumps can never be starved for water.

They are obviously in the business to sell equipment and make some $. But I also think they will go overkill as a couple suggested putting 3 rinnai's together. To me this is way too much, especially if the tank could be used as a buffer.

I would really appreciate any opinions/ suggestions/ pictures of your set up and what would be best for me.

I appreciate any responses and I will announce the winner of the $25 card on the forum and mail it to them asap. Thanks!

 

[99Roadking]

Navien

Someone has a $500.00 rebate on a Navien Commercial making the purchase price $999.00. Real nice unit.

http://www.navienamerica.com/Product/Page1/Details/CH-240ASME?Category=CH-ASME Series

 

[6t7gto]

I'm responding. Am I in the drawing?

Seriously though, look into Lochinvar. You can do floor heat and domestic water all in one unit.

 

[2Biz]

I started a thread here using a 200K Takagi Demand heater for a floor heat boiler which works perfectly:

http://forum.autocareforum.com/showthread.php?t=9409

I was thinking about doing the same to replace the old worn out Jarco 350K boiler to heat water since my current boiler does not work. Since I have a gravity feed system, I was thinking about putting in a 100 gallon holding tank and heating the water with a demand heater. I guess this method would depend on whether you have a gravity feed system or city pressure to your pumps.

A little more information would help on what type system you currently have and how you would like it set up.

 

[MEP001]

I put in a Paloma heater for a 4-bay wash and used a tempering valve after the heater to mix the 140° down to about 115-120°. The wash had lousy water pressure and it still had no trouble keeping up.

 

[bigleo48]

I've had Rinnais (good), Kituramis (Bad) and a NTI (very good). I would replace all my boilers with NTIs!

http://www.nythermal.com/trinity_ti?phpMyAdmin=4a6a574efd2bf60e5309614c9bb23fee

 

[mjwalsh]

Someone has a $500.00 rebate on a Navien Commercial making the purchase price $999.00. Real nice unit.

http://www.navienamerica.com/Product/Page1/Details/CH-240ASME?Category=CH-ASME Series

I checked out your link & put in the 100 mile radius of 58501 zip & none showed up on a list.

 

[RockyMountain]

I'm responding. Am I in the drawing?

Seriously though, look into Lochinvar. You can do floor heat and domestic water all in one unit.

Of course you are in! Are you using a Lochinvar? Does it require a holding tank?

 

[RockyMountain]

I started a thread here using a 200K Takagi Demand heater for a floor heat boiler which works perfectly:

http://forum.autocareforum.com/showthread.php?t=9409

I was thinking about doing the same to replace the old worn out Jarco 350K boiler to heat water since my current boiler does not work. Since I have a gravity feed system, I was thinking about putting in a 100 gallon holding tank and heating the water with a demand heater. I guess this method would depend on whether you have a gravity feed system or city pressure to your pumps.

A little more information would help on what type system you currently have and how you would like it set up.

Yes, it is a gravity fed system. So a holding tank seems like a good option. Is a smaller one on the wall better, or can I just use the current holding tank that I have in the picture?

 

[Randy]

I’ve looked at numerous pictures and have spent a lot of time on the phone with 2Biz and the system he installed is spot on of the best systems I’ve seen. It’s well thought out and very efficient. I have found over the years that there are very few "mechanical" companies that understand the needs of the car wash. I can’t understand for the life of me why they install these huge boiler systems in a car wash, most of the time all they need a large on demand water heater. Take a long hard look at 2biz’s system.

 

[2Biz]

I don't know why you couldn't use the one you have. Especially since its already plumbed to your pumps.

I was looking into a plastic or poly square tank and getting it off the floor so the output would be level with my pumps. A 24" x 30" x 48" tall tank is about $300 and holds 150 gallons. It could easily be insulated....

All you would need is a T-stat and a relay controlling the pump to the demand heater. The Takagi is flow sensitive and kicks on when the pump starts. On my floor heat system, I have 2 Taco 013 pumps that supply 40psi to the boiler needed to get about 7-8 gallons a minute output. I get 7.2-7.5 gpm with the boiler set on 105°. Incoming water/glycol temp is between 60° and 75°.

Pex Supply has the Takagi T-H3-DV like the one I bought for $1,350. I paid $1,565 in November. The T-H3-DV is rated at 10 gpm, but you need about 80 psi input to get 10gpm. Something you'll need to consider when deciding on a pump or pumps...The holding tank would be a good buffer when considering this type of a setup.

 

[2Biz]

After giving the poly tank more thought, I don't know if it will work. The system/holding tank will have to be pressurized in order to pull hot water from the top and fill from the bottom. Pressurized hot water will have to fill your gravity feed tanks through float valves.

I don't know if you could heat water in the poly tank and let it gravity feed to your pumps (From the bottom) like I originally thought. So you would definetly need a holding tank like yours and circulate the water through your demand heater to bring it to temperature.

If you read through my thread, the Takagi is very energy efficient. If you look towards the end, (I know its a lot to read), I posted some numbers that shows how efficient this model is. But I'm sure all the new Energy Efficient Heaters will compare. Some are just more expensive than others.

 

[RockyMountain]

I was waiting to reply until I had a chance to read through the other thread you started. I'm getting there.

This is great info and thanks so much. I definitely think I am starting to get on the right track now. A Takagi and keeping my current tank does seem like a good option. Now I just need to figure out how to do it!

 

[2Biz]

Is your current holding tank pressurized? From city pressure? And do you fill seperate tanks that gravity feed to your pumps. Some additional pics will help....

They do make high capacity/flow tank models like this one..

http://www.pexsupply.com/AO-Smith-B...U-Conservationist-Commercial-Gas-Water-Heater

It might be a little more expensive, but your storage tank and heater are all in one. Its condensing meaning it is high efficient. Its 90K btu and has a recovery rate of 218gph @ 40° temp rise.

A lot of thought should go into this. Do you heat only HP soap and wax and have cold water rinse? Will you heat all your water? Etc etc. This model heats 1744 gallons in an 8 hr day. How much water do you use on a busy day... How old is your current holding tank? Is it about to rust out? I know some are Stainless steel. All things need to be considered. I'm only offereing suggestions as I've been researching the same thing. I am undecided on which way to go, if I were to pull the trigger and add hot water to the bays? I don't get any complaints, but would I pick up more customers if I add it and maybe charge more to cover the additional expense?

 

[2Biz]

Woops! Sorry, the link above is not a condensing boiler. Let me see if I can find a high efficient condensing tank style....

 

[2Biz]

OK...Let me try again....This one is an AO Smith, higher end, but has a recoveery rate of 345 gph @ 40° temp rise and is only 60 gallons, 95% efficient...

http://www.pexsupply.com/AO-Smith-B...00-BTU-Cyclone-Xi-Commercial-Gas-Water-Heater

 

[RockyMountain]

Is your current holding tank pressurized? From city pressure? And do you fill seperate tanks that gravity feed to your pumps. Some additional pics will help....

A lot of thought should go into this. Do you heat only HP soap and wax and have cold water rinse? Will you heat all your water? Etc etc. This model heats 1744 gallons in an 8 hr day. How much water do you use on a busy day... How old is your current holding tank? Is it about to rust out? I know some are Stainless steel. All things need to be considered. I'm only offereing suggestions as I've been researching the same thing. I am undecided on which way to go, if I were to pull the trigger and add hot water to the bays? I don't get any complaints, but would I pick up more customers if I add it and maybe charge more to cover the additional expense?

The tank is pressurized from city water and looks pretty new. I've owned the wash for 4 years so it's at least that old. I doubt it's too much older though. It feeds two holding tanks on each side of my pump stand. These tanks feed the pumps. So, high pressure soap and rinse are both hot water. Pre-soak is mixed with hot water, but this draw is very minimal. I'll do some calculating on daily water needs. At true peak times I would need as much as 12 gallons per minute. But I would be okay with the temp dropping a bit during these times (obviously as long as the pumps are not starved for water).

Would having hot water get you more customers is an interesting question. I believe hot water will help your chemicals work better and help cars leave cleaner. Are there other washes nearby that potential customers use? If your customers leave with a good experience and a clean car, they will come back. That is probably even more important than attracting new customers. If every customers that comes is pleased, your business will grow.

 

[2Biz]

Deleted Double post

 

[Chris Bateman]

We have experience with many different types of boilers with installations throughout Colorado and Wyoming.
Get a hold of me and I can let you know what has worked for us and what to run from.
Happy Washing!!
Chris Bateman- Hi Performance Wash Systems, Inc.

 

[Mr. Clean]

We just installed the Navien 240NPE. So far they are absolutely wonderful. Three units putting out 12gpm total and a 200gal storage tank and constant 120 degreee water with no temp drop on the busiest of days. On slower days only one or two fire as necessary.

Depending on how busy it gets, you could handle everything with two units and a smaller tank.

You mentioned other popular brands. Did you look at Navien before narrowing the field?

My three units and installation were 2/3 the cost of a competitor and we have greater heating capacity.

PM if you want more details.

Good luck.

MC