A contest for the technically enlightened.

[mac]

I came across a weird self serve bay recently that almost stumped me. Two of my techs were stumped, as was the manufacturer (GinSan) and two other repair companies. I was literally ready to call it quits when I thought let me try this. And it worked. Since it stumped so many techs I thought it would be a learing experience to share with this audience. The person who figures it out will get a free Forum tee shirt from me, and an adult beverage of your choice if you get to FL.

Here's what was happening: The place is a Florida self serve about 8 years old with Gin San equipment. In this bay when you switched from high pressure soap to rinse, the rinse water never got really clear. After the changeover time, 15 seconds in this case, the soap would decrease a lot, but there was still a lot of soap in it. This is where it gets weird. If you changed to say wax for about 5 to 10 seconds, it would clear up just fine. Everyone did the simple things like change the soap solenoid (3 times) and reversing the solenoids from the backward way GinSan installs them. Absolutely no difference with that. So put on your thinking caps and dream of the Forum tee shirt! I'll answer all questions here only.

 

[washnvac]

My guess would be that it was the manifold block. The small hole where the solenoid plunger seats probably corroded over time. Therefore the plunger was not making a full seal when shut off; thus some soap was getting through when the high pressure was on. This would require replacment of the whole block, or plugging that hole and adding an entire individual solenoid valve for that bay.

 

[mac]

Sorry washnvac, not that. In this setup there are individual solenoids valves for both soap and wax for each pump, and almost everyone changed the soap solenoid.

 

[washnvac]

OK...when you said changed solenoids I assumed just the repair kit parts like the plunger assembly. But if each valve is independant, and you changed them, then ofcouse it is not that. I will keep thinking......

 

[washnvac]

If you changed to say wax for about 5 to 10 seconds, it would clear up just fine.

Do you mean it would go clear with no wax, when on the wax selection? Or did it stop soap and deliver wax?

 

[car washing systems inc]

Did they use hydrolic hose and the soap was soaking into the braid of the hose and when the wax was used it would kill the foam

 

[Eric H]

Do you mean it would go clear with no wax, when on the wax selection? Or did it stop soap and deliver wax?

I need clarification on this too, please.

 

[JMMUSTANG]

Had that problem a couple of years ago.
I changed everything and it still continued.
Finally I changed the hose from the pump to the bay, the hose to the gun and it stopped.
I don't know why but it worked for me.

 

[JustClean]

If it has a rotary switch it would be this. Corrosion and dirt playing tricks within the switch. I have a similar problem at the moment.

 

[robtl]

Sorry washnvac, not that. In this setup there are individual solenoids valves for both soap and wax for each pump, and almost everyone changed the soap solenoid.

Check and or replace the wax solenoid valve,,,(backflow into the wax tank.)

 

[Earl Weiss]

If it has a rotary switch it would be this. Corrosion and dirt playing tricks within the switch. I have a similar problem at the moment.

Kinda like that one. Some goofy contact causing the soap solenoid to open slightly or intermittently when set to rinse, but not other functions.

 

[Charles Ho]

Stumped

A picture of the setup may help!

If soap and wax share the same check valve to the pump, the check valve may be sticking in some fashion. Replace the check valve or split the two with independent check valves.

 

[mac]

Holy Cow. I didn't think anyone would get it so quick. JMMustang got it. The hose was regular blue pressure washer hose sold all over. The factory guessed a leaky voltage on the solenoid causing it to somehow slightly open. There was no stray voltage, and even if there were, a slight voltage would not cause it to open slightly. Forgot to mention that at one point I closed the small ball valves shutting offf the flow of soap and wax to the pump, and it still soaped ! The only logical conclusion that I could come to was that the 8 year old hose had become porous on the inner linning and was absorbing the strong soap the operator used. When switching to rinse you could stand there for two minutes and still get some soap. Switching to wax must have acted as a defoaming agent. That really threw everyone off. It made it look like some type of leaky solenoid or check valve. To compound it, the design of that pump stand is a nightmare of tangled hoses. Just take a look at one and tell me what every hose goes to. I thought that changing the hose wouldn't cost me too much time and if it worked, I could recoup at least some of the time I put into it. My business philosophy is that if I don't actually fix something, I don't charge him for my time. So congratulations JMMustang, let me know where to send the shirt and size.This is one of those weird things that I hope you remember if you get it.

 

[car washing systems inc]

What my answer was wrong lol

 

[washnvac]

That was going to be my next answer, ofcourse!!

 

[MEP001]

I saw the exact same thing at a wash years ago, right down to a quick switch to wax and then rinse clearing the soap from the lines. I suspected the hoses to the bays but didn't have any with me so I couldn't change them. The customer later ran new bay lines and the problem went away. The original lines were regular GoodYear Neptune 3000 steel-braided hose, which must have been trapping some soap and slowly releasing it into the clear rinse water.

 

[cantbreak80]

We used to extend the service life of soap absorbing high pressure bay supply hoses by installing an on/off delay cube timer for each bay. The cube timer would energize the wax solenoid for 3 to 4 seconds every time the motor starter engaged. The short burst of wax was barely perceptible to the car wash customer. The timers saved many an operator time and money from having to replace those long self service and in-bay automatic hoses on a regular basis.

Cube timers and soap saturation problems were completely eliminated when we "upgraded" the installation packages to stainless steel tubing for the high pressure bay plumbing.

 

[JustClean]

We used to extend the service life of soap absorbing high pressure bay supply hoses by installing an on/off delay cube timer for each bay. The cube timer would energize the wax solenoid for 3 to 4 seconds every time the motor starter engaged. The short burst of wax was barely perceptible to the car wash customer. The timers saved many an operator time and money from having to replace those long self service and in-bay automatic hoses on a regular basis.

Cube timers and soap saturation problems were completely eliminated when we "upgraded" the installation packages to stainless steel tubing for the high pressure bay plumbing.

How old is the wash usually when this happens?

 

[mac]

The wash that started this is about 8 years old, and used regular Goodyear 3000 psi water hose. If you have hydraulic hose, I would guess that it would start sooner. I like the idea of stainless tubing.

 

[MEP001]

GoodYear Neptune 3000 is hydraulic hose.