Boiler Replacement Options - Win a $25 Restuarant Card!

[MEP001]

I'm adequate with my voltage meters. When I find out how the strips are wired (and I find rinse) can I simply pull wires from there to the NC solenoid?

Yes, assuming it has a wire for rinse already run and hooked up. Look on the rotary switch in the bay - the terminals labeled 11 and 21 are the inputs and correspond to the "STOP" position. Work your way around to see which is the rinse position, and if there's a wire already connected to it you should be able to trace it by color back to the room. If there's no wire on it and you have an unused wire, use that. If there is neither, you'll either have to use a relay like I described or pull wire(s) to the bay.

 

[RockyMountain]

I dont fish, but consider yourself warned that if you make that kind of "offer" for any big game you're going to wake up with me on your doorstep!

We are one in the same then. I would trade a quality mule deer or elk hunt for a quality whitetail hunt anyday!

 

[RockyMountain]

Yes, assuming it has a wire for rinse already run and hooked up. Look on the rotary switch in the bay - the terminals labeled 11 and 21 are the inputs and correspond to the "STOP" position. Work your way around to see which is the rinse position, and if there's a wire already connected to it you should be able to trace it by color back to the room. If there's no wire on it and you have an unused wire, use that. If there is neither, you'll either have to use a relay like I described or pull wire(s) to the bay.

That's what I'll do as soon as I can. I am getting sumps pumped tomorrow and by the way- I have another full time job. The car wash is my hobby...

As I rotate clockwise, will each function match clockwise on the rotary switch?

A naive query, but why do some have wires on both sides (like 12 and 22) while others only on one side?

 

[MEP001]

The two stacks of the switch are separate outputs with 11 & 21 jumpered together to supply the timed power. If the motor output didn't have its own output from the switch, a set of relays or something would have to be used to control the motor. In fact the relay that's below your bay timer probably used to do that.

 

[2Biz]

A naive query, but why do some have wires on both sides (like 12 and 22) while others only on one side?

Like Mep said but will add....Usually the rotary switches we use have (2) rows because one row has "Break Before Make" contacts and the other row has "Make Before Break" contacts. The pump motor is wired into the "Make Before Break" Contacts so the motor doesn't stop start stop when going from rinse soap and wax....You'll want these three HP functions side by side on the rotary...

On the other row, "Break Before Make", these will be all your LP functions. You want the contacts to "Break Before Make" so you don't have 2 or more solenoids energized at the same time. It minimizes load on the timer and transformer...

 

[MEP001]

Usually the rotary switches we use have (2) rows because one row has "Break Before Make" contacts and the other row has "Make Before Break" contacts. The pump motor is wired into the "Make Before Break" Contacts so the motor doesn't stop start stop when going from rinse soap and wax....You'll want these three HP functions side by side on the rotary...

I like to put foam brush between soap and rinse on the switch, since ideally that's the way the customer should use them. With a delay relay on the motor, skipping over a function won't let the motor shut off and come back on. I actually have two "skips" since it's soap, foam brush, rinse, tri-foam, rinse, wax.

 

[2Biz]

So many options! Its good to have options and know enough to choose which one will benefit you most.

I don't have motor starter delay relays, but I'm thinking it would be a good idea...Although, I have (3) Leeson's that are about 25 years old and still running strong...I guess all the starting and stopping hasn't hurt them much, yet!

 

[MEP001]

I don't have motor starter delay relays, but I'm thinking it would be a good idea...Although, I have (3) Leeson's that are about 25 years old and still running strong...I guess all the starting and stopping hasn't hurt them much, yet!

I'm sure it shortens their life some - it's probably harder on the motor starter contacts.

 

[mjwalsh]

So many options! Its good to have options and know enough to choose which one will benefit you most.

I don't have motor starter delay relays, but I'm thinking it would be a good idea...Although, I have (3) Leeson's that are about 25 years old and still running

2Biz,

Are they 3 phase motors? I definitely see the motor starter delay relays helping single phase motors. We have had touchpad membranes & now buttons on our coin boxes since 1987 & not rotary switches & also 3 phase motors so this is not really relevant. Since Rocky is a newer operator ... this is more of an informational post ... so hopefully it is relevant in that sense. Back in 1987 the touchpads were the latest & greatest come on fad for our distributor-installer ... too bad the specific proprietary original membranes & their proprietary inter-acting PC boards became obsolete within a way too short of a time for us afterwards. Thank goodness for Dan Kamsikas at GinSan ... otherwise we would have been forced to go to rotary switches or really spend some big money.

It will be interesting on how Rocky comes out with the Navien Tankless with its built in re-circulator. We have been checking into their 240 combo unit but we notice that for some reason that specific one is only rated about 91% efficient which is similar to our Hydrotherm Multipulses last made in 2006. It must have something to do with less condensation created because of the expected higher non-domestic closed loop boiler water temperature on that side of the COMBO unit. I wonder if they are somewhat guessing on the efficiency because there are variables for each installation. We are hoping to roll up our sleeves & go for the purchase & installation shortly before our next North Dakota winter. We will definitely need a good sketch & possibly a quick animation-simulation before we cut into our somewhat involved system.

mike walsh king koin ... USA deficit sleuth on youtube

 

[2Biz]

My motors are three phase....Meps probably right, the delay relays would help wear and tear on the contactors....But having the motor on the "make Before Break" contacts of the rotary serves about the same purpose. MOST of my customers only use soap, rinse, wax, then rinse again....They are all together on my rotary, so once the pump motor latches in, it doesn't turn off till the timer times out...

Mike, thanks for the information...Its nice to share ideas to learn how the same thing is done with different methods. It makes it so much easier to decide which way to go with a project when you have options....Too many times I get done with something only to find out there was a better way to do it!

 

[RockyMountain]

I like to put foam brush between soap and rinse on the switch, since ideally that's the way the customer should use them. With a delay relay on the motor, skipping over a function won't let the motor shut off and come back on. I actually have two "skips" since it's soap, foam brush, rinse, tri-foam, rinse, wax.

We have foam brush between our rinse and hp soap too. Unfortunately our motor turns off and back on when spinning from one to the other across the foam brush. Since I have the one second delay when the one of these functions is first selected, is there a way to modify this to have a 1 second delay to turn off as well?

Below is a picture of our coin box decals. Our signs match and have descriptions as well.

 

[MEP001]

Since I have the one second delay when the one of these functions is first selected, is there a way to modify this to have a 1 second delay to turn off as well?

There is an on/off delay relay that will directly replace what you have with no changes to the wiring.

Here's the decal I made if you're interested:

 

[RockyMountain]

There is an on/off delay relay that will directly replace what you have with no changes to the wiring.

Nice work on the decal!

Any chance you would know the specifics of what on/off delay relay this might be?

 

[MEP001]

IDX makes one - the only one I see on Kleen-Rite's site says no longer available.

Here's a simple off-delay:

http://www.sustainablesupply.com/Da...UPc4AodAxQAZA&CAWELAID=1307486460&cagpspn=pla

 

[RockyMountain]

I'm going to work on the wiring to the new NC solenoids tomorrow and I'll post my findings. The boiler still has not leaked so I'm still in a holding pattern and hoping for the best. Thanks to all the participants and I'll will draw for the $25 restaurant card soon!

 

[RockyMountain]

That's what I had to assume.


I've done some similar things with an Omron relay from mouser.com (about $6, just soldered wires onto the terminals).

This should help:

Motor output from switch goes to terminal labeled Motor, normally-closed side of circuit labeled Rinse goes to rinse solenoid. Soap output from switch goes to hot of relay coil (labeled Soap). Right now when your rinse is selected and you're rinsing with hot water, only the motor starter is energized. The same power is shunted through the relay to energize the rinse solenoid, and when soap is selected the relay is energized and the circuit to the rinse solenoid is broken.

Thanks for this plan! I'm going to tackle it shortly. About how many Amps would be present so I pick up the correct relays?

 

[MEP001]

About how many Amps would be present so I pick up the correct relays?

Almost none. The smallest plug-in relays are usually rated for 10 amps, and you'll only be switching about 10 watts.

 

[RockyMountain]

Almost none. The smallest plug-in relays are usually rated for 10 amps, and you'll only be switching about 10 watts.

They have a DPDT in stock. I can use that and just ignore the extra pins, correct?

 

[MEP001]

Yes, the only difference would be that a SPDT might be cheaper depending on where you buy it.

 

[mjwalsh]

They have a DPDT in stock. I can use that and just ignore the extra pins, correct?

Rocky,

The extra terminals will be on standby if ever needed. None of us have a crystal ball when it comes to potential future switching needs.

mike