Boiler Replacement Options - Win a $25 Restuarant Card!

[RockyMountain]

Rocky,

The extra terminals will be on standby if ever needed. None of us have a crystal ball when it comes to potential future switching needs.

mike

That's what I was thinking too. And it looks like I would only save a couple dollars anyway. Thanks!

 

[RockyMountain]

There is currently a Dayton 5x840 relay that is used for the motors.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ww...ch&Ntt=5x840&N=0&GlobalSearch=true&sst=subset


Is there a way to use this to help in this wiring. Rather than adding another set of relays, I thought this one may be usable. It's a 3pDT and it seems like it's only used for the motors, although it works when rinse and hp soap is selected.

 

[MEP001]

Without knowing how your wash is wired, I can't answer that. If it's there for the motor, you can't use one of the outputs because it's already switching something.

Have you gone out to the bay to figure out if it already has a rinse circuit hooked up, or if there's an unused wire you can connect to the switch to use?

 

[RockyMountain]

Without knowing how your wash is wired, I can't answer that. If it's there for the motor, you can't use one of the outputs because it's already switching something.

Have you gone out to the bay to figure out if it already has a rinse circuit hooked up, or if there's an unused wire you can connect to the switch to use?

Well, I don't have an extra wire. The switch is jumpered in several places and then goes to a plug so it's difficult to figure out which wire is which. If the rotary dial is pointed straight up would it be the numbers directly opposite that (in other words on the bottom)?

 

[MEP001]

The best thing to do would be to take a pad and pen, go out to the bay and write down the positions of the switch and the color wires going to it. 11 & 21 is the switched load from the timer and corresponds to "STOP," then it goes counter-clockwise as the label goes clockwise. Once you know what each color wire is for, you'll know what it does in the equipment room (and you'll know what the relay is for).

 

[2Biz]

I posted this link Back on post 133:

http://bcoweb.com/photos/8+pos+dix.pdf

Make a large print of this and use it to document your wiring. It can be a long time before changing out a rotary switch or trouble-shoot the wiring. Having a print of your system is very valuable and you only have to do it once.

 

[RockyMountain]

I definitely have this information and diagram from the previous posts. My 11 and 21 have wires and I assumed that if it was "stop" there shouldn't be any wires.

Issue 2- on the rotary, the wires are all black, which then go into a plug and then come out with color wires. I can probably get past that, but then...

Issue 3- Then in the equipment room, they hit a box in the ceiling which is absolutly full of wires from all 5 bays. (3 main bays plus the end bay which we converted to an automatic and the outside bay which gets very little use). At this box there are some "Solid State Logic RW-6" stations that have wires connected in different ways. It appears some of the wires change colors before going into conduit and off to various other places, some of which end up at the timers.

So after a 30+ years and a dozen owners, something as simple as described just isn't. But I think I'm working my way through it. All I need now is only one job so I could dedicate some time to the project!

 

[MEP001]

11 and 21 are the timed input to the switch, so since there's no output at those points it's the "STOP" position.

Can you not tell by looking at the motor contactor which two wires are the 24V hot and common? That's really all you need to hook up the additional relay.

 

[RockyMountain]

11 and 21 are the timed input to the switch, so since there's no output at those points it's the "STOP" position.

Can you not tell by looking at the motor contactor which two wires are the 24V hot and common? That's really all you need to hook up the additional relay.

Yes I think I can tell that, although there are three wires that go into the motor contactor. Rookie question but how can you tell which one is the hot and which one is the common? Will the hot have 24 volts always and the common only when the motors are engaged?

I obviously know which two wires are the HP Soap, which will be used to break the circuit. I may have time to try tomorrow so thanks!

 

[MEP001]

The three larger wires that connect to the three lugs up front are the 3-phase power wires that run the motor. Somewhere on it are two smaller wires that go back to a nearby terminal strip. One of them will combine with many other wires which is the common side, the other is the 24V hot.

If I had a mess like you describe, the first thing I'd do would be to buy a spool of 15 conductor wire and run all new. I hate working on other people's stuff like that. The two idiots that wired the wash did such a sloppy job that I've replaced everything they did.

 

[mjwalsh]

Rookie question but how can you tell which one is the hot and which one is the common?

Rocky,

Hopefully, they have continuity between the earth ground (green wire normally) & the 24 volt neutral to avoid floating voltage. That continuity could be a way to tell. On our workbench we test for 24VAC hot often between the earth ground & the likely hot.

Looking at most manufacturers schematics you will notice that they tend to switch on the hot wire & not on the neutral return path.

FYI .... I have found the use of the word "common" is sometimes tricky because sometimes "common" can also be a "hot" wire.

I think labeling the non relevantly colored wires could help in the future.

mike

 

[MEP001]

Hopefully, they have continuity between the earth ground (green wire normally) & the 24 volt neutral to avoid floating voltage. That continuity could be a way to tell. On our workbench we test for 24VAC hot often between the earth ground & the likely hot.

I feel like I explained it succinctly enough to make it easy for him to understand. It wasn't necessary to confuse the issue by posting an overly-complicated explanation.

FYI .... I have found the use of the word "common" is sometimes tricky because sometimes "common" can also be a "hot" wire.

com·mon [kom-uhn] adjective 1. belonging equally to, or shared alike by, two or more or all in question

Regardless of whether or not his wiring uses a 24V/neutral or two legs of 12VAC, the word "common" still applies with the wire they all share on one lug.

 

[RockyMountain]

I'm pretty sure after looking at everything again tonight that I am all set to correctly use the DPDT relays. Now if I could just get some time!

 

[RockyMountain]

Sorry for the delay!!

I'm pretty sure after looking at everything again tonight that I am all set to correctly use the DPDT relays. Now if I could just get some time!

First, I apologize for not holding the drawing for the $25 restaurant card earlier. I will do so as soon as I get this project wrapped up. It has been a crazy summer that has not allowed me to work on this project until the other day...

I finally found some time to hook up the DPDT relay. After much trial and error, I got it to work but want to double check that it is correct. I ended up using a green wire twice that is jumpered to every terminal strip. I thought this was the ground, but it is working. Could it be the common? I used the HP Soap wire from the bay and green jumpered wire to power the coil. I also used the green jumpered wire to one of the posts on the NC solenoid. Finally I used the motor starter 24-volt wire and the second wire from the NC solenoid to the switching ports of the DPDT. So, there are only 4 wires connected to the relay. It seems to work, but want to make sure I'm not missing something that will show up later. If you can follow this and have a comment, thanks!

 

[MEP001]

The only concern when all bays have the common side jumpered together is that the phases stay in order. If you check across the left output lug on any pair of bays with a volt meter, the voltage should read zero; same with any two bays across the right lug.

 

[RockyMountain]

The only concern when all bays have the common side jumpered together is that the phases stay in order. If you check across the left output lug on any pair of bays with a volt meter, the voltage should read zero; same with any two bays across the right lug.

Thanks for the reply. What do you mean by "left lug" and "right lug?"

Does 4 wires connected to the DPDT switch seem correct?

 

[MEP001]

It sounds right.

 

[mjwalsh]

I used the HP Soap wire from the bay and green jumpered wire to power the coil. I also used the green jumpered wire to one of the posts on the NC solenoid. Finally I used the motor starter 24-volt wire and the second wire from the NC solenoid to the switching ports of the DPDT. It seems to work, but want to make sure I'm not missing something that will show up later. If you can follow this and have a comment, thanks!

Rocky,

My intent is not to confuse anyone but I would make sure that I was not using a green wire that might have been put in for safety purposes for the wire being a long term substitute for a neutral voltage return wire (main electrical entrance panel). In other words, the green wire may function but there could be a hazard created. It seems like if Class 2 transformer(s) are used there would be less risk & possibly no risk. A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous ... & I guess that is why you want someone here to verify there are no other potential considerations. Calling a qualified for your equipment electrician to your facility would be the best as he would be in a position to thoroughly examine all the connections. I remember once visiting with a high school classmate who became an electrician & he hooked me up to an electrician who specialized more in controls ... I remember his wise words ... not all electricians are good at controls.

Long term safety should always be properly considered!

Mike

 

[I.B. Washincars]

Long term safety should always be properly considered!

I totally agree. I once hooked one of those tiny alligator clipped jumper wires that you get at Radio Shack, to a white wire, assuming it was a neutral just because it was white. Long story short, it wasn't a neutral.

 

[RockyMountain]

Rocky,
Calling a qualified for your equipment electrician to your facility would be the best as he would be in a position to thoroughly examine all the connections.
Long term safety should always be properly considered!

Mike

I agree, but I can't find a qualified equipment electrician anywhere!! We are in a town of 60,000 and still no one seems to know how this should be done. Amazing but true!