Flow Meters. Are there any good ones?

[James.Ireland]

Hi all,

I'm thinking of changing up the high pressure soap and high pressure wax setup at my 2 bay self serve wash. When I put the wash back in service I replaced the old flow meters with the Dwyer units in the picture below. These pretty much all started to leak within about the first month. Anyone have good luck with flow meters? If so what brand do you use?

Right now I'm mixing soap and wax as there was a good stock of the product when I re-opened the wash and the setup seemed to work fine if I measured the chemical out reasonably well.

I'm hoping to get a couple HydroMinders setup so I have less to worry about. Also I'm hoping to get rid of the metering valves as they sometimes seem to gunk up and stop the flow of soap and wax. Does that sound like a bad idea to anyone?

 

[2Biz]

I use Dwyers and have never had an issue. Although I use the non-metering ones and use metered Kip SS solenoids. I put new orings in the flow meters 10 years ago when I rebuilt my pump stand and haven't had a drip....16 flow meters in service total. I might add, my flow meters are original equipment and over 50 years old!

 

[OurTown]

We have metered Dwyer flow meters and I'm assuming they are original to the wash. (20 years old) I know for sure they are all least 5 1/2 years old because that's when we bought the wash. They look different than those though.

 

[James.Ireland]

Hmmm. I wonder what I did wrong with these, maybe I should try a different model of flow meter.

I was looking at these to replace them as I don't know how I would troubleshoot no soap or no wax conditions if I didn't have some indication of flow.

Blue-White FI-100-6V | Flow Indicator For 3/8in. Tubing (kleen-ritecorp.com)

 

[2Biz]

Do you know where the flow meters are leaking? Its possible the way you have them plumbed is causing the issues? I'm having a hard time believing the problem is with the Dwyer Flow Meters? I used SMC style push connects and LLDPE tubing back in 2014 when I rebuilt my pumpstand...So about 9 years ago...I wouldn't be so quick to try another type of flow meter thinking its going to fix your problem...Here is a how I replumbed my stand....Maybe it can give you some ideas. SMC fittings is what I settled on, John Guest also has good push connect fittings...

 

[James.Ireland]

Do you know where the flow meters are leaking? Its possible the way you have them plumbed is causing the issues? I'm having a hard time believing the problem is with the Dwyer Flow Meters? I used SMC style push connects and LLDPE tubing back in 2014 when I rebuilt my pumpstand...So about 9 years ago...I wouldn't be so quick to try another type of flow meter thinking its going to fix your problem...Here is a how I replumbed my stand....Maybe it can give you some ideas. SMC fittings is what I settled on, John Guest also has good push connect fittings...

That plumbing looks nice and neat. Good work. I have my meters connected with brass fittings to 3/8” tubing. The fittings have little brass ferrules. It’s possible I over tightened them and they have developed a leak over time. I have them attached to the pump with a little section of 1/4” aluminum channel. They do wiggle around a bit when the pump runs. I’ll try replumbing them somewhere they won’t vibrate and see if they stop leaking. Thanks for the advice.
How do you like your metering solenoids? Are they adjustable or just a set flow?

 

[2Biz]

The Kip SS solenoids with metering valves are set and forget. I've only had to adjust one or two of them since they were installed.

 

[MEP001]

It’s possible I over tightened them and they have developed a leak over time.

So what exactly is leaking, the flow meters or the compression fittings at the tubing?

 

[2Biz]

Are they adjustable or just a set flow?

Keep this in mind, you can only flow so much through an 1/8" orifice like the Kips, so there is a little bit of math to do when setting up your system....I have hydrominders that are metered so that only 10oz a minute of soap and wax flow into the HP pump and the final ratio is correct ...The complete system is totally variable. In comparison, my Dwyers are graduated in Oz per minute. 10 oz per minute would be the same as 4.68 gph on yours. So you have quite a bit of range on your flow meters.

You mentioned you mix your chemicals by hand and don't have hydrominders....I have very small Hydrominder tanks that work great and don't take up much space to give you an idea how to put a system together. Photo included for reference. These SS tanks are about 2 gallons each. They supply 10oz a minute to the pumps with soap and wax and about 30 oz a minute FB and PS...

 

[Randy]

First what makes you think you need a flowmeter? I’ve been in the car wash business 40 years and have never installed a flow meter.

You need to get yourself a couple of Hydrominders ASAP and give up on mixing the chemicals by hand, which went away 40 some years ago when the first Hydrominders came out. There are more efficient ways now then mixing by hand.

Your “Gunk up” problem is probably caused by the age of the chemicals that were in the car wash when you took over. Was there heat in the equipment room prior to you taking it over. If there wasn’t there’s a good possibility that the left over chemicals froze, if they froze they are probably not much good anymore. Car wash chemical don’t last forever.

To solve your “gunk” put a clear bowl 80 mesh strainer on the discharge of your chemical holding tank. This will prevent the gunk from fouling your solenoid valves.

 

[James.Ireland]

So what exactly is leaking, the flow meters or the compression fittings at the tubing?

After inspecting I believe the leak is where the plastic of the Dwyer meter meets the brass fittings. I will try taking them apart and replacing the Teflon tape. I'll maybe try some pipe dope over a few wraps of Teflon tape and see if that helps.

 

[Randy]

There shouldn't be any or very little pressure on those fittings. I like to use "Leak Lock" on fittings that are problem leaking https://www.supplyhouse.com/Supco-H...ping&msclkid=11f3a7d9e02916f99a58c420e4f5fd00

 

[James.Ireland]

Keep this in mind, you can only flow so much through an 1/8" orifice like the Kips, so there is a little bit of math to do when setting up your system....I have hydrominders that are metered so that only 10oz a minute of soap and wax flow into the HP pump and the final ratio is correct ...The complete system is totally variable. In comparison, my Dwyers are graduated in Oz per minute. 10 oz per minute would be the same as 4.68 gph on yours. So you have quite a bit of range on your flow meters.

You mentioned you mix your chemicals by hand and don't have hydrominders....I have very small Hydrominder tanks that work great and don't take up much space to give you an idea how to put a system together. Photo included for reference. These SS tanks are about 2 gallons each. They supply 10oz a minute to the pumps with soap and wax and about 30 oz a minute FB and PS...

2Biz, your machine room must be beautiful based on those couple photos, that is a nice setup.

Right now when I mix the soap I put about 500 ml in my pails and fill the rest with water. I then dial in the flow to the HP pumps and I find between 2 and 4 GPH provides a good "show" and "scent" in the bays, depending on how much "error" is in my measuring.

I am thinking I'll order a coupe Hydrominders and work to get the soap and wax dialed in then I'll order the Kips once I see how much flow on the Dwyers gives me good results.

It's overwhelming to try to order all the pieces of the system all at once when I don't really understand how they all work.

Right now I'm thinking of having my friend weld me up two 24x12"x12" stainless wall mount tubs, one for wax and one for soap and throwing a hydrominder 511 unit in each to get me started.

HydroMinder 511 | 4.5 GPM | Siphon Breaker | Mounting Bracket (kleen-ritecorp.com)

I'm not even sure the 511 is the right unit to get but it seems to have all the pieces I need and nothing I don't.

 

[James.Ireland]

First what makes you think you need a flowmeter? I’ve been in the car wash business 40 years and have never installed a flow meter.

You need to get yourself a couple of Hydrominders ASAP and give up on mixing the chemicals by hand, which went away 40 some years ago when the first Hydrominders came out. There are more efficient ways now then mixing by hand.

Your “Gunk up” problem is probably caused by the age of the chemicals that were in the car wash when you took over. Was there heat in the equipment room prior to you taking it over. If there wasn’t there’s a good possibility that the left over chemicals froze, if they froze they are probably not much good anymore. Car wash chemical don’t last forever.

To solve your “gunk” put a clear bowl 80 mesh strainer on the discharge of your chemical holding tank. This will prevent the gunk from fouling your solenoid valves.

Thanks Randy.

I'm not sure if the chemicals froze. When I rebuilt some items on the pump stand there was evidence to indicate that some things may have frozen. I just mixed the last couple buckets of soap from the left over stuff so it's time to order new soap now anyways. Maybe I'll order wax as well and just throw out the last of the old chemicals.

I'll try adding a bowl and 80 mesh strainer before the flowjets. I should also take a day and take apart all the solenoids and clean them. They haven't been apart in a decade I bet.

I think I'll order a couple Hydrominder 511 kits this weekend and take the first step towards not mixing any more chemical.

Do you have a preference on the Hydrominder? The 511 looks to have the mounting bracket, siphon breaker and chemical injection all included in the kit so that's what I was thinking I'd order.

 

[MEP001]

You don't really need the siphon breaker, the 506 is the same as the 511 without it. As long as you cut or drill a small hole in the hose above the liquid level in the tank, you won't ever have an issue that requires the siphon breaker. Just replace the bracket bolts with stainless and it will last forever.

IMO you don't need adjustments for soap and wax to the pump. The solenoid orifice is going to be the restrictor, so as long as they're all the same size the flow should be the same to all bays. I've had some inconsistencies with some setups where 1/4" tubing was used on a long set of pumps, the farthest bays from the tank got less chemical, so I cut all the tube runs the same length and coiled up the extra. Now I just use 3/8" tubing and no problems at all.

Is it possible you may have overtightened the fittings into the flow meters and twisted the brass insert? That will definitely make them leak.

 

[Randy]

A 24” x 12” x 12” tank is WAY too big for a small 2 bay car wash. We use a tank that is no more than 2 or 3 gallons at the most. You could use a 13 qt. stainless bucket https://www.webstaurantstore.com/13-qt-stainless-steel-utility-pail/407SP13.html or https://www.webstaurantstore.com/choice-12-qt-stainless-steel-bain-marie-pot/407BMS12.html put a bulkhead fitting in the bottom and you’ve got a tank that will last a longtime. Or you could get a livestock water bucket https://www.statelinetack.com/item/flat-sided-hook-on-pail/060407/ or a DuraFlex Flat Back Bucket 20 Qt. Over the years I’ve seen everything from a 5 gallon Home Depot buckets to a surplus plastic .50 ammo can.

 

[2Biz]

Good suggestions on the mix tanks for soap, wax, PS and FB soaps! The small Air Logic tanks I bought from KR was $79.00 when I installed them 9 years ago...They are up to $177.58 now! WOW! I thought they were almost cost prohibitive then!

Self-Serve Low Pressure Tank | Low Pressure System | Air Logic (kleen-ritecorp.com)

I have to disagree about not using flow meters or metering valves....It would only take me seconds to diagnose an issue or make adjustments from the ER without ever going to the bay to test...ALL my bays are exactly the same when proportioned using the flowmeters. There are Way Too Many variables when it comes to final ratio at the pump....Water quality (hardness), pump seals, plumbing to the pump, etc to name a few...It helps to at least have two things you can change to get the final ratio right. Metering tips on the hydrominder and needle valves in order to control flow to the pumps. The flow meters also help get all bays the same. Length to the bay/wand doesn't affect these readings.

Mep is right on the 506 hydrominder. Save yourself $$$ and drill the sysphon break in the hydrominder discharge hose above the fluid level in your tank. It does the same thing.

 

[2Biz]

2Biz, your machine room must be beautiful based on those couple photos, that is a nice setup.

Thanks, but its far from beautiful! My Old Mark VII pumpstand carcas is over 50 years old...I have made some modifications over the years....All for the better! Keep reading on the forum here. You will get there!

 

[OurTown]

Make sure when you drill the hole in the discharge tube it is after/below the restrictor.