In-Bay and Vac Station Lights
- Thread starter 2Biz
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Mr. Clean
Member
I have changed my bay 120v metal halide wallpaks to CFL's based on the conversion lamps sold by KleenRite. Broke two or three in the process; at $30 a bulb, it's going to delay payback, but I feel better when they burn on rainy or snowy nights. I also had 400w MH on 16' poles on the vac islands that were replaced with 65w CFL with no detrimental loss of illumination.
Now I need an option for the 208v fixtures at my other location. The power company has a program using 30w LED that will work on 208, but the light pattern isn't adequate. If anyone has any experience converting wallpaks to LED, I'd like to hear about it.
2Biz, thanks for the pictures and the product links. CFL's are a huge improvement.
1000bulbs is a good vendor and easy to work with. Econolight dinged me for a restocking charge when some bulbs had to be returned.
Now I need an option for the 208v fixtures at my other location. The power company has a program using 30w LED that will work on 208, but the light pattern isn't adequate. If anyone has any experience converting wallpaks to LED, I'd like to hear about it.
2Biz, thanks for the pictures and the product links. CFL's are a huge improvement.
1000bulbs is a good vendor and easy to work with. Econolight dinged me for a restocking charge when some bulbs had to be returned.
An option for you would be to switch the wiring for your 208v fixtures to 120v. It should be an easy swap in your Breaker Box. You should have a hot wire, common, and ground for the 208v so switching it to 120v should be easy. Depending on how your wash is wired, you will probably have to take the 208v wiring from a 3 phase panel and move it to a single phase panel. But should be an easy swap. This would allow for more choices when switching to CFL.
Switching to CFL's was one of the first things I did after buying the wash. Saved me about $75 a month in electric. I'm going on 2 years and haven't had a single bulb failure. You won't regret making the change.
Switching to CFL's was one of the first things I did after buying the wash. Saved me about $75 a month in electric. I'm going on 2 years and haven't had a single bulb failure. You won't regret making the change.
MEP001
Well-known member
208V is the same as 240V - no common wire, just two hots and a ground. Switching it to 120V should still be simple though by making one of the hot leads a common. The entire circuit would need to be changed at once, and with the reduced load of CFL bulbs it could probably be combined to one breaker instead of the two it would be on now. You'd just have to add the total amps used.2Biz said:
Sorry, but 208v is not the same as 240v. Do a search on "Wild Leg" 3 phase. It consists of (3) phases, (2) 120v legs, a 208v leg, and ground. I know, I have it installed in my ER that runs my pump stands. I also have a seperate service for single phase 120v and 220v applications. This "Wild Leg" or "High Leg" service, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-leg_delta was designed to run as 3 phase allowing you to power 120v motors/lights, 220v single phase motors ( (2) 120v legs) , 208v single phase lighting, and 3 phase motors in the 9 wire Delta Configuration.
This was one of the first things I had to learn when I bought the wash. I had a bad 5hp pump motor and needed to replace it. Checking the 3 phases didn't make sense to me since there were (2) 120v and (1) 208v center tap or leg. Since Mr Clean said he had 208v lighting, I was assuming he had the "Wild Leg" 3 phase like mine since you have to have it in order to power 208v single leg single phase lights.
This was one of the first things I had to learn when I bought the wash. I had a bad 5hp pump motor and needed to replace it. Checking the 3 phases didn't make sense to me since there were (2) 120v and (1) 208v center tap or leg. Since Mr Clean said he had 208v lighting, I was assuming he had the "Wild Leg" 3 phase like mine since you have to have it in order to power 208v single leg single phase lights.
MEP001
Well-known member
Then you have a different 208V than we do. If I measure any of the three legs to ground, it's 120V. All circuits are usable as 120V rather than having to block off every third breaker slot where there's not a 3-phase breaker in place.
Anything that uses two or three legs runs 208V. The light ballasts have a tap for 208; motors just run at a higher amperage.
Anything that uses two or three legs runs 208V. The light ballasts have a tap for 208; motors just run at a higher amperage.
car washing systems inc
Member
You can have 208 without the high leg.
MEP001
Well-known member
You don't get 208V on a single leg - you get 208V on two or three legs and 120V on each individual leg to ground. The first transformer seen here is one type - the usual thing you'd see here is three transformers on a pole for 208V. High-leg 240V only has two transformers and the third "high" line (which reads 277V to ground) straight to the meter.
Mep, Before we debate this any further, and since we are talking about “Light Transformers/ballasts” wiring, check out this page:
http://www.venturelighting.com/ballasthtmldocuments/wiring_diagrams-stand.html
And tell me if you see any wiring diagrams that “Power” the ballast/transformer using (2) hot legs and a common to make 208v? Look at diagram “D” for instance. The transformer can be wired with 120v, 208v, and 240v. If you wire 208v, you use a common and (1) 208v lead. And you get this from using only (1) lead (The center leg 208v) from a system like I have. The center “B” leg of my 3 phase service is 208v to ground. The outside 120v legs, A and C are 120v to ground. BUT checking from phase to phase on my service yields 240v, even if checking A phase to B phase (120v and 208v). This is accomplished by the timing of the “B” (208v) phase. It is different when comparing (With as cope) to the (2) 120v phases. It has to be to get 240v. Phases A and C (120v)are timed identically so they read 240v between them. The “Cycle” timing of the 208v is such, that when checking it to the 120v phases, you get a 240v reading.
BTW… I DO get 208v on a single leg on my service to ground. Re-read the “Wild Leg” or “High Leg” link I posted earlier and see if you still agree with your comment “You don't get 208V on a single leg”.
http://www.venturelighting.com/ballasthtmldocuments/wiring_diagrams-stand.html
And tell me if you see any wiring diagrams that “Power” the ballast/transformer using (2) hot legs and a common to make 208v? Look at diagram “D” for instance. The transformer can be wired with 120v, 208v, and 240v. If you wire 208v, you use a common and (1) 208v lead. And you get this from using only (1) lead (The center leg 208v) from a system like I have. The center “B” leg of my 3 phase service is 208v to ground. The outside 120v legs, A and C are 120v to ground. BUT checking from phase to phase on my service yields 240v, even if checking A phase to B phase (120v and 208v). This is accomplished by the timing of the “B” (208v) phase. It is different when comparing (With as cope) to the (2) 120v phases. It has to be to get 240v. Phases A and C (120v)are timed identically so they read 240v between them. The “Cycle” timing of the 208v is such, that when checking it to the 120v phases, you get a 240v reading.
BTW… I DO get 208v on a single leg on my service to ground. Re-read the “Wild Leg” or “High Leg” link I posted earlier and see if you still agree with your comment “You don't get 208V on a single leg”.
MEP001
Well-known member
I meant here in our region. I've worked on literally hundreds of washes and have never seen one with a leg that reads 208V to ground. It's either 120V on all three or 120/120/277. As I said before, you must have a different 208V than we do.2Biz said:
If I were to rewire one of the Scottsdale fixtures to operate 208V, I would have to use a double-pole breaker and run two legs to the fixture and a ground (No common). If it had the typical "high-leg" 277V then I could use that leg, a common and a ground in the same way you can use your 208V leg.2Biz said:
Interesting....When we use a double pole breaker and run two legs of 120v to anything, electric motors, dryers, ranges, hot water heaters, etc., we get 240v accross the two legs. Not 208v...
Kevin Reilly
self serve carwashes
2Biz I've read with interest your thread on lighting and we are now looking into it.
I've read Soapy's suggetion regarding using Full Spectrum (daylite) in the 5000 color range.
My dilema will be to sample some although I want the brightest (as everyone does), and in our bays (we have 25 bays) w/4 175W MH per bay plus (I think) 1 fixture front and rear of each wall or other wall which equates to about 150 fixtures. My daughter Julie will give me a count in the next couple of days.
My thoughts are to try the 85's in the fixture if they will fit. They are mogul base in all but one location.
Were you able to buy the small base from the light supplier to redo your fixture.
I am really excited about putting in new lighting and powering in direct with 110V as opposed to the transformers and mess that is in the fixtures now. I will probably do what you did just to make sure and do a couple of bays to compare.
In the vacuum areas we have carports over 4 locations. 3 locations are fluorescent and work fine. A 7-bay that we have has Scottsdale in the vac area and it is daylite, but expensive as you know. In reading your thread you or somebody addresses that in that we can also change that. What you recommend?
With all that I've said, what is your recommendation now that you have started this at your wash and if anybody else wants to chime in on this question, please do!
I've read Soapy's suggetion regarding using Full Spectrum (daylite) in the 5000 color range.
My dilema will be to sample some although I want the brightest (as everyone does), and in our bays (we have 25 bays) w/4 175W MH per bay plus (I think) 1 fixture front and rear of each wall or other wall which equates to about 150 fixtures. My daughter Julie will give me a count in the next couple of days.
My thoughts are to try the 85's in the fixture if they will fit. They are mogul base in all but one location.
Were you able to buy the small base from the light supplier to redo your fixture.
I am really excited about putting in new lighting and powering in direct with 110V as opposed to the transformers and mess that is in the fixtures now. I will probably do what you did just to make sure and do a couple of bays to compare.
In the vacuum areas we have carports over 4 locations. 3 locations are fluorescent and work fine. A 7-bay that we have has Scottsdale in the vac area and it is daylite, but expensive as you know. In reading your thread you or somebody addresses that in that we can also change that. What you recommend?
With all that I've said, what is your recommendation now that you have started this at your wash and if anybody else wants to chime in on this question, please do!
MEP001
Well-known member
I've been replacing the 320W bulbs and ballasts with 250W in the Scottsdales and the visible reduction in light output is minimal. I use a coated bulb with a warmer light; even though it's rated less light output the CRI is better. There's not a single CFL that will fit in these fixtures and put out more than a fraction of the light you'd want - I just ordered four 42-watt CFL's for another purpose and I plan to test-fit them into one Scottsdale to see how it does. I did this once before with the regular 23W you can get at Sam's until I could get a ballast in - the light wasn't anywhere near enough, but it was better than leaving it dark over the changer.Kevin Reilly said:
Kevin, Buy a couple of these 85 watt bulbs and give them a try I think you’ll be surprised at how much light they put out. http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/8254/FC85-S50OD.html2Biz I've read with interest your thread on lighting and we are now looking into it.
I've read Soapy's suggetion regarding using Full Spectrum (daylite) in the 5000 color range.
My dilema will be to sample some although I want the brightest (as everyone does), and in our bays (we have 25 bays) w/4 175W MH per bay plus (I think) 1 fixture front and rear of each wall or other wall which equates to about 150 fixtures. My daughter Julie will give me a count in the next couple of days.
My thoughts are to try the 85's in the fixture if they will fit. They are mogul base in all but one location.
Were you able to buy the small base from the light supplier to redo your fixture.
I am really excited about putting in new lighting and powering in direct with 110V as opposed to the transformers and mess that is in the fixtures now. I will probably do what you did just to make sure and do a couple of bays to compare.
In the vacuum areas we have carports over 4 locations. 3 locations are fluorescent and work fine. A 7-bay that we have has Scottsdale in the vac area and it is daylite, but expensive as you know. In reading your thread you or somebody addresses that in that we can also change that. What you recommend?
With all that I've said, what is your recommendation now that you have started this at your wash and if anybody else wants to chime in on this question, please do!
You’ll also need this adapter http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/5840/ELEC-242515.html
But first measure the length of the 175 watt MH bulb you’ve got in your fixture to make sure that this bulb will fit into your fixture. This bulb is 10” in length.
soapy
Senior Member
Now that I have had my locations converted to new lighting for a few years I have a few observations about several lights that were installed. We used various fixtures from 42 watt CFL wall mounts to T8 conversion kits and T5 2 and 4 light water proof fixtures. We also installed some LED fixtures. Overall my favorite are the T5 waterproof fixtures. A single 2 bulb T5 fixture provides plenty of light to replace a 175 or 250 watt MH fixture while using a lot less energy. A 4 bulb T5 fixture will replace a 400 watt MH for light while using 1/2 the energy. Kleenrite sells a 2 bulb T5 waterproof fixture for under $100 and Farmtek also carries them. T5s have also proven to have the long bulb life while maintaining their light output over time. A T5 bulb will generally last twice as long as a CFL bulb and retain 90% of total light output over its life. I have not had to change 1 bulb or ballast in any T5 fixture yet. My 42 watt CFL fixtures are starting to need replacement light bulbs and I have found them for under $4 each at 1000bulbs.com. I have a few of the 42 watt fixtures that have had ballasts go bad and have tried a few 42 watt CFL screw in bulbs vs. the 4 pin bulb that comes original to the fixture. This conversion has not worked well since the CFL screw in bulbs generate too much heat and burnout to fast in the 42 watt fixture. In the last issue of SSCWN I wrote a article about lights and the government programs availible that will help pay for lighting upgrades. Check with your electrical provider and accountant on these programs, in many cases you can get the lighting upgrade for nothing.
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Our PUD will pay to convert the T-12 fluorescent fixtures over to T-5’s. They only will pay for the conversion kit not the labor or the disposal costs of the old bulbs. The conversion has to be done by an electrical contractor that’s been approved by the PUD, you can’t do it yourself. I got 2 bids to convert my T-12 110 watt H.O over to T-5, both were within $50 of each other. I was in shock, it would be less expensive to buy new 8’ T-5 fixtures from Kleen-rite and put them up myself, almost $2K less expensive. I haven’t decided what I’m going to do yet, I could do the conversion myself or replace the fixtures or keep the H.O 110’s I’ve got now.
Another operator here remodeled his carwash about 2 years ago and put in 320 watt Scottsdale lights in the bays. He’s totally dissatisfied with the high operating costs and is now looking at converting over to LED lighting.
Another operator here remodeled his carwash about 2 years ago and put in 320 watt Scottsdale lights in the bays. He’s totally dissatisfied with the high operating costs and is now looking at converting over to LED lighting.
Kevin Reilly
self serve carwashes
Thanks Mep, Randy & Soapy for the quick reply.
Randy, I asked 2-Biz if he replaced the female (mogul) socket in his fixture and there has been no reply, but I would think it would be available. My fixture width is 10" on the bulk of our light fixtures. To gain more room I could gut the fixture and even 45 degree the bulb if I had to and could aerate the fixture in the shop to help dissipate the heat. But I still have a lot to learn about this lighting.
Years ago when the T-8's came out I put them in some of the washes. For some reason I wasn't satisfied & don't remember why and so I replaced most of the lighting in the washes with what is there now.
Photos are the bulk of the fixtures we are trying to relight. While typing this I just realized I have 1 location that has the "standard" receptacle so that's the location that would be easiest to try first!
Your thoughts on this fixture?
Randy, I asked 2-Biz if he replaced the female (mogul) socket in his fixture and there has been no reply, but I would think it would be available. My fixture width is 10" on the bulk of our light fixtures. To gain more room I could gut the fixture and even 45 degree the bulb if I had to and could aerate the fixture in the shop to help dissipate the heat. But I still have a lot to learn about this lighting.
Years ago when the T-8's came out I put them in some of the washes. For some reason I wasn't satisfied & don't remember why and so I replaced most of the lighting in the washes with what is there now.
Photos are the bulk of the fixtures we are trying to relight. While typing this I just realized I have 1 location that has the "standard" receptacle so that's the location that would be easiest to try first!
Your thoughts on this fixture?
soapy
Senior Member
Randy is right about replacing the lights yourself. I did this at one location myself at about 1/3 the cost of going through the utility company program. At the locations where the utility company did do the conversions I am still saving about $200 per month in electrical bills after paying off the 0% no interest 5 year loan they provided.
