Programmable Relay or PLC
- Thread starter 2Biz
- Start date
Its not really an issue or problem. (2) five second blasts of air after system startup isn't going to phase my 80 gallon compressor. Its just stumping me as to why I can't configure this circuit to run perfectly without the start up issue. I'm just not coming up with the right combination yet...
Anybody want to play with the program I have so far, download it here:
http://www.bcoweb.com/photos/blowdown_v2.lsc
http://www.bcoweb.com/photos/blowdown_v2.lsc
cantbreak80
Maybe I need new clubs
I have an archived blowout program that does everything you need...a slightly different approach.
All idle bays blow down at temperature set point
Active bays wait until they become idle
Individual bays blow down after each use below set point
Now...I cannot display a screenshot like you've done...so it's your turn to help me.
Tell me how to do it and I'll share my program with you.
All idle bays blow down at temperature set point
Active bays wait until they become idle
Individual bays blow down after each use below set point
Now...I cannot display a screenshot like you've done...so it's your turn to help me.
Tell me how to do it and I'll share my program with you.
I use a hosting company (Hostgator) where I host some of my domains. I simply upload my files to their server and link to the files. Its not easy to post pictures on this site because of the file size restrictions.
You can use sites like Image Shack to upload your images to. When you have it all set up, simply click on your Image and copy the link in the title bar and paste it in the message box here on the site. If you want your image to display instead of clicking on it, click the "Insert Image" icon above the message window, and put the link/path in the box that comes up, it will start with HTTP://
You'll want to resize your Images to about 800 x 600 resolution. That is a good file size and will be less than 100kb in size. If you have windows XP all you have to do is right click on any .jpg or .gif and click resize image. If you don't have the plugin, download it from Microsoft. Under Powertoys I believe.
Thats how I do it....But if all thats too much, send me the files thru email and I'll post them for you. PM sent....
You can use sites like Image Shack to upload your images to. When you have it all set up, simply click on your Image and copy the link in the title bar and paste it in the message box here on the site. If you want your image to display instead of clicking on it, click the "Insert Image" icon above the message window, and put the link/path in the box that comes up, it will start with HTTP://
You'll want to resize your Images to about 800 x 600 resolution. That is a good file size and will be less than 100kb in size. If you have windows XP all you have to do is right click on any .jpg or .gif and click resize image. If you don't have the plugin, download it from Microsoft. Under Powertoys I believe.
Thats how I do it....But if all thats too much, send me the files thru email and I'll post them for you. PM sent....
*****Posted For cantbreak80*****Attached is my 3 bay air blow out program…
Without modification, each bay will blow out twice for 10 seconds with 30 second intervals.
First blow out is controlled by thermostat set point…delay is 5 seconds for simulation purposes. Change that to 5 minutes in the operational program.
IF a bay is in use during the initial blowout, it’s blowout will occur after the switch state is off.
A 2 second delay prevents excessive operation.
The blowouts occur 30 seconds after the customer switches off the selection...giving the customer a chance to step away from the application device.
To increase blowout times, change the Pulse Generator ON times from 10 to 15 seconds and adjust the Cycle Timers to 90 seconds.
To make the system blow out 3 times, adjust the cycle timers to 3 times the total Pulse Generator time.
cantbreak80 (Larry)
Program can be downloaded here:
http://www.bcoweb.com/photos/ABO_v3.3.lsc
This program is more complex than mine and Larry thought of something I didn't, actually a lot more that I didn't think of. He added a (Much Needed) blowdown when the thermostat kicks on. Up to this point, my program doesn't have this. With my program, if a bay didn't get used after the thermostat kicked in, the bay could freeze.
Very well done Larry, Thanks for sharing!
mjwalsh
6 bay SS w/laundromat
Safety PLCs or Programmable Safety Relays?!
I wonder if anybody in the car wash industry has done anything with Safety PLCs or Programmable Safety Relays? We are just finishing up on three pieces of high g-force laundry equipment with using a Phoenix Trisafe safety relay along with certified safety interlocks. With its parallel processing the Trisafe also can verify the integrity of every specific wire. Troubleshooting --- just go to one of its over 25 inputs & outputs tiny leds & verify the exact status of the specific input or output. It also can be worthwhile to observe the program the in & out values values while the system is functioning via USB & a laptop.
I see value in these types of devices & they could even help prevent serious injuries or death.
Oops --- a lot of us won't be able to afford that level --- dang precious resources went to merchant fees & the extra weight cost of handling quarters & too heavy of use from one dollar bills on our more fragile bill acceptors. I couldn't resist --- considering the political lies about how everyone "hates" the dollar coins. It is interesting how "lies" can sometimes temporarily trump better "logic".
mike walsh king koin of bismarck
2BIZ & others,
I wonder if anybody in the car wash industry has done anything with Safety PLCs or Programmable Safety Relays? We are just finishing up on three pieces of high g-force laundry equipment with using a Phoenix Trisafe safety relay along with certified safety interlocks. With its parallel processing the Trisafe also can verify the integrity of every specific wire. Troubleshooting --- just go to one of its over 25 inputs & outputs tiny leds & verify the exact status of the specific input or output. It also can be worthwhile to observe the program the in & out values values while the system is functioning via USB & a laptop.
I see value in these types of devices & they could even help prevent serious injuries or death.
Oops --- a lot of us won't be able to afford that level --- dang precious resources went to merchant fees & the extra weight cost of handling quarters & too heavy of use from one dollar bills on our more fragile bill acceptors.
I couldn't resist --- considering the political lies about how everyone "hates" the dollar coins. It is interesting how "lies" can sometimes temporarily trump better "logic".mike walsh king koin of bismarck
You'll have to excuse the comment I made about the Carwash Level of knowledge using PLC's isn't as "High Tech" as other uses. I was wrong there! Cantbreak80, uh, showed me that... But thats ok, I am at least learning and thats what I want to do. His program makes way more sense than the one I created. Though, without at least attempting a program of my own, I wouldn't have understood how any of them worked. Its at leat making sense now.
MJ, after my feebled attempt at making a program that runs a blowdown system, what level of programming would it take to make what your wanting? I've looked at some of the machine tool Ladder Programs where I work, and theres no way I could ever get to that sophisticated level. Its extremely complex. Right now, even a good working blowdown program is "Extremely Complex" for me!!!
The hardware isn't that expensive anymore. It would be the programming that would cost a lot of $$$. How can it be justified a quarter at a time? We get over $100 an hour at work for our contract machining....It covers a lot of expenses.
But thats ok, I am at least learning and thats what I want to do. His program makes way more sense than the one I created. Though, without at least attempting a program of my own, I wouldn't have understood how any of them worked. Its at leat making sense now.MJ, after my feebled attempt at making a program that runs a blowdown system, what level of programming would it take to make what your wanting? I've looked at some of the machine tool Ladder Programs where I work, and theres no way I could ever get to that sophisticated level. Its extremely complex. Right now, even a good working blowdown program is "Extremely Complex" for me!!!
The hardware isn't that expensive anymore. It would be the programming that would cost a lot of $$$. How can it be justified a quarter at a time? We get over $100 an hour at work for our contract machining....It covers a lot of expenses.
Update: I made some changes to Larry’s program and wanted to give everybody an update if you’re interested. I added the cursor keys and also made changes to Input (1) (Thermostat Input) so all three outputs energize at a different time once activated @ 32°. This will accomplish two things. It will help minimize load on the complete circuit by energizing one solenoid at a time. It will also deliver consistent air pressure to each line since I have my system pressure regulated to 60 LBS. If all three solenoids energized at the same time, it would drop the pressure/volumn of air to where it wouldn’t be as affective.
If anybody is interested in a copy of the program, send me a PM. Thanks again to Larry for sharing his program to get me headed in the right direction. If anybody has anything to add, please feel free to chime in. BTW, I updated the program to the latest Software Revision. The original that I posted for Larry was made at Rev 3.3. WindLGC is up to Rev 6.1. It has a lot of added features that Rev 3.3 didn’t have.
If anybody is interested in a copy of the program, send me a PM. Thanks again to Larry for sharing his program to get me headed in the right direction. If anybody has anything to add, please feel free to chime in. BTW, I updated the program to the latest Software Revision. The original that I posted for Larry was made at Rev 3.3. WindLGC is up to Rev 6.1. It has a lot of added features that Rev 3.3 didn’t have.
mjwalsh
6 bay SS w/laundromat
2Biz,
It looks like a good job --- the discipline of the revisioning should be noted by anyone wanting to get into this type of programming.
As you probably already know --- the fun part is the thorough all aspects testing. The programming looks eerily similar to the TriSafe Relay that I my earlier post was about. Its manual refers to it as a PLC so it is understandable that the programming would look similar. Of course a safety certified device & safety level certified programming does add another dimension --- which would not apply to freeze protection as much as loss of limb or life type of protection.
By testing --- I would be concerned about the air being thorough enough. When it gets cold enough we manually blow all our lines since 3 of our tandem bays are not fully enclosed --- a quick blow out will protect against broken tubing etc --- but not against potential small blockages that would still need to be thawed.
If you can, let us know the effectiveness & caveats of your project overall --- not just the programming addressable portions of it.
mike walsh king koin of bismarck
Will do...I've had all the parts needed on order from Wolf Automation since the 19th of Dec. and still haven't recieved the order yet. Needless to say I'm dissapointed in this company. It is rare that I have a problem like this with any online order.
Right now I do the same thing as you. I manually blow out the lines when the temps are going to drop below freezing. But to do this I have to disconnect power to the solenoids becasue if I try to energize a solenoid (By Jumping 24v to the solenoid) it backfeeds to the internal relay of the system and starts the chemical pump.
I'm thinking this will work good down to about 20°. Because the past few nights have gotten down to 17° and even though the lines have been blowed out, when new foam hits the nozzel at these temps, it freezes at the gun temporarily. If this becomes an issue, I can add a module and maybe incorporate an RV antifreeze or Washer fluid injection....Still a lot cheaper than Polar Freeze gaurd...
Right now I do the same thing as you. I manually blow out the lines when the temps are going to drop below freezing. But to do this I have to disconnect power to the solenoids becasue if I try to energize a solenoid (By Jumping 24v to the solenoid) it backfeeds to the internal relay of the system and starts the chemical pump.
I'm thinking this will work good down to about 20°. Because the past few nights have gotten down to 17° and even though the lines have been blowed out, when new foam hits the nozzel at these temps, it freezes at the gun temporarily. If this becomes an issue, I can add a module and maybe incorporate an RV antifreeze or Washer fluid injection....Still a lot cheaper than Polar Freeze gaurd...
MEP001
Well-known member
I order the hardware from http://www.awc-inc.com - the service has always been excellent.
So its a year later....Got the floor heat boiler done and had time to finish up the Idec Programmable Relay I started to winterize the Tri-Foam System. See pictures attached.
Note the "Iscolation" relays in the enclosure. IF you are using a seperate Transformer to power the Controller and Solenoids used in the system, you will need to "Iscolate" the power from this transformer from the transformers used in your bays. That is what the Yellow Cube Relays are for. I have switches inline for all inputs from the bays and secondary output from my weepmizer. This allows me to turn off the IDEC and Iscolation relays during the Spring/Summer/Fall months...
Once the IDEC and Iscolation Relays are activated and in standby mode, the Idec awaits a signal from the Weepmizer from the secondary output at 33°. Once activated the system blows down, injects washer fluid, and blows down again, one bay at a time untill all the bays are finished. This minimizes load and volumn on the air compressor. Once this complete cycle is finished for each bay, the Idec goes into standby for bay usage. If a bay is used (Tri-Foam) for more than 2 seconds (to eliminate switch throughs), that bay goes through a complete blowdown, washer fluid injection, then another blow down cycle. Each cycle blows 10 seconds of air, 5 seconds of washer fluid, then 10 more seconds of air. Once temperature rises above 33°, the system is basically de-activated...It only runs below 33°.
Note the "Iscolation" relays in the enclosure. IF you are using a seperate Transformer to power the Controller and Solenoids used in the system, you will need to "Iscolate" the power from this transformer from the transformers used in your bays. That is what the Yellow Cube Relays are for. I have switches inline for all inputs from the bays and secondary output from my weepmizer. This allows me to turn off the IDEC and Iscolation relays during the Spring/Summer/Fall months...
Once the IDEC and Iscolation Relays are activated and in standby mode, the Idec awaits a signal from the Weepmizer from the secondary output at 33°. Once activated the system blows down, injects washer fluid, and blows down again, one bay at a time untill all the bays are finished. This minimizes load and volumn on the air compressor. Once this complete cycle is finished for each bay, the Idec goes into standby for bay usage. If a bay is used (Tri-Foam) for more than 2 seconds (to eliminate switch throughs), that bay goes through a complete blowdown, washer fluid injection, then another blow down cycle. Each cycle blows 10 seconds of air, 5 seconds of washer fluid, then 10 more seconds of air. Once temperature rises above 33°, the system is basically de-activated...It only runs below 33°.
copperglobe
Active member
Voltage question; On that PLC I read that the voltage is 24 VDC. Aren't washes 24VAC? So how does that PLC handle the inputs of 24VAC? Thanks.
I'm using the FL1E-H12RCA Base Module. It can be ran on either 24vac or 24vdc. I'm also using the FL1B-M08D2R2 Expansion Module since I needed more than (4) outputs. It runs on 24vac or 24vdc as well.
pitzerwm
Active member
Doesn't the PLC's relays just provide an output and you use whatever voltage that you need?
Yes...Output voltage can be what ever you want as long as you don't exceed amperage. The spec sheet shows output voltage ranges for the FL1E-H12RCA from 12v ac or dc all the way up to 240vac with load current (Amps) from 2a up to 10a depending on whether you have a resistive load or inductive load.
Basically the outputs are just switches/relays. Line in/Load out.
They make different PLC's to accomadate different Input Voltages. So you need to figure out what Input voltage you'll be working with and purchase the right PLC for that voltage. In our case you'll want a PLC set up for 24vac input voltage.
Basically the outputs are just switches/relays. Line in/Load out.
They make different PLC's to accomadate different Input Voltages. So you need to figure out what Input voltage you'll be working with and purchase the right PLC for that voltage. In our case you'll want a PLC set up for 24vac input voltage.
copperglobe
Active member
Voltages are one of the things and problems that we've run into with our business. We're familiar with PLC's and programming ladder logic with another business that we have. Now, with our washes, we've tried to implement PLC's into the business only to find out that our Siemens PLC's don't have the ability to input 24vac (which is the voltages of washes).
With that in mind, what brands of PLC's do you recommend? IDEC, others? We're looking for PLC's that can do simple tasks as well as the complex like running in-bay automatics.
Thanks
With that in mind, what brands of PLC's do you recommend? IDEC, others? We're looking for PLC's that can do simple tasks as well as the complex like running in-bay automatics.
Thanks
Here is the Siemens version of the Idec I have...It has 24vac inputs....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Siemens-LOG...t=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item1c1fb05c9f
Basically the Siemens Logo and the Idec I listed above are the same thing. Back in the beginning of this thread this was posted by cantbreak80:
"IDEC SmartRelay is the private label version of Siemens LOGO with a 6 month delay for new products".
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Siemens-LOG...t=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item1c1fb05c9f
Basically the Siemens Logo and the Idec I listed above are the same thing. Back in the beginning of this thread this was posted by cantbreak80:
"IDEC SmartRelay is the private label version of Siemens LOGO with a 6 month delay for new products".
