MikeV
Member
Sequoia, apparently you have never been threatened or no one you know has ever been threatened or in a life and death situation. I'll keep my guns and you can keep the change.
Stringers and gunfire - a fun way to spend the night
- Thread starter Ghetto Wash
- Start date
pitzerwm
Active member
I think that the point that Sequoia is making is that in most places you would go to jail for doing what Getto Wash did. You need to find out what the laws are in your area and what will happen to you if you do this or that. There are a lot of anti gun people that will be on your jury. They feel sorry for the dirtbag. Bottom line is IMO if you shoot someone they better be within 10' they better have a gun or a big weapon and you better hit them in the front. Using your gun to stop them or scare them is a big mistake.
I still pack a gun, but if I pull it I intend to need it before I use it, not wave it around.
I still pack a gun, but if I pull it I intend to need it before I use it, not wave it around.
pitzerwm
Active member
I think that the point that Sequoia is making is that in most places you would go to jail for doing what Getto Wash did. You need to find out what the laws are in your area and what will happen to you if you do this or that. There are a lot of anti gun people that will be on your jury. They feel sorry for the dirtbag. Bottom line is IMO if you shoot someone they better be within 10' they better have a gun or a big weapon and you better hit them in the front. Using your gun to stop them or scare them is a big mistake.
I still pack a gun, but if I pull it I intend to need it before I use it, not wave it around.
I still pack a gun, but if I pull it I intend to need it before I use it, not wave it around.
When I went through a weapon training class several years ago they pretty much said what Bill did. If you draw your gun you better be ready to use it and not just for show. It better be to defend yourself against a recognized personal danger involving another weapon or reasonable defense of another party in danger, not just a physical confrontation or verbal assault. Firing randomly could land you in big trouble in most jurisdictions.
Ghetto Wash
Active member
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If I did not run a zero tolerance wash here I would be overrun with gang bangers, prostitutes, and drug dealers. I am going to continue to protect my business with whatever force is necessary for the situation at hand. I have been in the middle of gang related shootings, had a gun pulled on me when I told someone that they had to put the spray can down and stop spraying grafitti on my walls. I've got to play tough in this neighborhood.
Texas Penal Code chapter 9 section 42.2.a gives me the right to shoot the SOB if he is stealing from me if deadly force is required to:
"to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime"
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm#9.42
By the way, its been about 2 months and not a single quarter has come up missing since. Seems like my solution, although temporary I believe, has worked so far.
Sequoia, it is my opinion that I did not put myself in the situation as you stated, but the stringer put himself there when he decided to steal from me.
Texas Penal Code chapter 9 section 42.2.a gives me the right to shoot the SOB if he is stealing from me if deadly force is required to:
"to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime"
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm#9.42
By the way, its been about 2 months and not a single quarter has come up missing since. Seems like my solution, although temporary I believe, has worked so far.
Sequoia, it is my opinion that I did not put myself in the situation as you stated, but the stringer put himself there when he decided to steal from me.
Fatboy769
Living the American Dream
This and the fact that they have the death penalty and use it, is why I love the great state of Texas!
Force
MikeV,
You assume, erroniously, that I somehow have less passion for rights of gun ownership than you do. I am a long term gun owner and carry quite often.
The problems here are many. First, when I read that GhettoWash wrote: "As I stand over him I decide to rattle him a little more and tell him, "Now I have a decision to make. I can take care of you right know by myself ..." I knew right then that his weapons training was either pitiful or inadequate. Take a good training course and learn why making such a statement is foolish to do and can only bring harm or trouble back on the gun owner making such a statement.
Next, the problems with this situation were many. From his description, he was in front of the truck when he fired a round. What if the drunk girlfriend, unseen to him and passed out on the seat, had sat up just before he fired? Would he have fired if there was an infant in the car? How did he know if there was or wasn't? Was there more than just the single lookout, and if there was, would that person have shot him in their own self defense once he blew off the first round?
At 3am, alone, with no radio, no backup, and adreneline thorugh the roof, he has the composure to tightly place a bullet round just to the side of the person's head with confidence about not hitting him? Really? Combat soldiers and highly trained police officers aren't that good. Of course, he had already scoped out the backdrop to make sure he didn't hit anything sensitive after the bullet passed through the glass, right?
I read the statutes that were cited and believe he could be prosecuted had he hit someone with a round. Yes, there is wide latitude in Texas, but I'm not sure that all other means under the statute were closed off-- leaving *only* deadly force in this situation. For $40?
I will repeat the end of my last post. What you are risking is far too high compared to what you try to protect. At the very minimum, please get some quality weapons training. By making verbal threats like Dirty Harry, it's obvious you either didn't get such training or didn't get your money's worth.
I am a fellow wash owner; I am not trying to criticize you I am trying to be helpful. Think about that, please.
MikeV,
You assume, erroniously, that I somehow have less passion for rights of gun ownership than you do. I am a long term gun owner and carry quite often.
The problems here are many. First, when I read that GhettoWash wrote: "As I stand over him I decide to rattle him a little more and tell him, "Now I have a decision to make. I can take care of you right know by myself ..." I knew right then that his weapons training was either pitiful or inadequate. Take a good training course and learn why making such a statement is foolish to do and can only bring harm or trouble back on the gun owner making such a statement.
Next, the problems with this situation were many. From his description, he was in front of the truck when he fired a round. What if the drunk girlfriend, unseen to him and passed out on the seat, had sat up just before he fired? Would he have fired if there was an infant in the car? How did he know if there was or wasn't? Was there more than just the single lookout, and if there was, would that person have shot him in their own self defense once he blew off the first round?
At 3am, alone, with no radio, no backup, and adreneline thorugh the roof, he has the composure to tightly place a bullet round just to the side of the person's head with confidence about not hitting him? Really? Combat soldiers and highly trained police officers aren't that good. Of course, he had already scoped out the backdrop to make sure he didn't hit anything sensitive after the bullet passed through the glass, right?
I read the statutes that were cited and believe he could be prosecuted had he hit someone with a round. Yes, there is wide latitude in Texas, but I'm not sure that all other means under the statute were closed off-- leaving *only* deadly force in this situation. For $40?
I will repeat the end of my last post. What you are risking is far too high compared to what you try to protect. At the very minimum, please get some quality weapons training. By making verbal threats like Dirty Harry, it's obvious you either didn't get such training or didn't get your money's worth.
I am a fellow wash owner; I am not trying to criticize you I am trying to be helpful. Think about that, please.
MEP001
Well-known member
I have to agree with Sequoia. Even though Texas law does help the property owner in protecting himself/his property with deadly force, statistics show that YOU are much less likely to be seriously injured or killed if you aren't carrying a gun. There are too many cases where someone has been shot with their own weapon, either by trying to get it out under a flood of adrenaline or having it taken away by a bad guy who has nothing to lose. There are much safer ways to catch someone stringing your changer, and many ways to stop them without dangering lives.
MikeV
Member
Sequoia, point well taken. I do understand where you are coming from. But once when my wash was burglarized I told the police that it was good that they were there and not me as I would have shot the bum. They said, "and the problem is....?" Gotta love Texas.
A lot of good points here. I think the basic question is, "Is it is worth shooting a stringer if there is a possibility that you might also get shot or prosecuted for shooting someone?" I believe it is best to do all you can to prevent stringing from happening rather than using deadly force with some rather dire consequences for you.
pitzerwm
Active member
You can have it both ways, carry pepper spray as well as a gun. You might also consider a tazer, they give you options. I have no problem defending myself, but shooting someone over property might be a stretch. No doubt, we could do with less low lives, but I'm not sure, I'm ready to be Dirty Harry.
Indiana Wash
Member
I too carry a gun, and I agree with this guy's advice. In most localities, you would go to jail. Criminal recklessness with a deadly weapon is a felony in most jurisdictions. Self-defense is just that, a defense...something that is brought up at trial.
Red Baron
Active member
Not taking a position on that particular incident, but Texas, as an example, has the Castle Doctrine which says you can use lethal force to defend your property. And while I don't know if I could actually bring myself to shoot a guy who is walking off with a bucket of my quarters, there would be a lot fewer guys stealing stuff if the newspapers were full of stories about business owners shooting them and not being charged with a crime.
Indiana Wash
Member
The castle doctrine does not apply to this situation for lots of reasons.
1. It is not the owner's castle. Texas does have a stand your ground law.
2. There is no threat of harm.
3. The guy in the truck was legally there.
Also, the castle doctrine is a DEFENSE!!! A defense is something that must be shown at trial. It does not matter that a defense may exist if the DA wants to push the case. This is how it will work.
DA proves that car wash owner shot a gun into an occupied vehicle in that jurisdiction. DA uses past statements of car wash owner as well as the windshield and gun.
Now, owner must prove that he had a valid reason to shoot.
Defenses are like excuses and a-holes. We all have them but none of them are pretty. It is like when you read in the paper that a politician has been charged with a crime. The part where they explain their reason or defense just sounds whiny.
Even if you win at trial, you are out $5000 or more in just attorney's fees with no chance of recovering any of it.
In almost all states there is a major difference between defending your life and defending your property. Use of deadly force is only justified if you are being attacked with a lethal weapon or obviously threatened with bodily harm. It doesn't appear that these stringers were armed. You are probably lucky the cops didn't give you a seat next to the lookout in the back seat. No one likes to get robbed but as someone has already said it's hard to justify it over a bucket of quarters. As many have suggested it would be better to prevent stringing than taking matters into your own hands.
Red Baron
Active member
Texas' Castle Doctrine is different than most states in that is says you do not have to retreat if someone forces their way into your house, car, or business.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...thwest/stories/032807dntexcastle.241e482.html
But of course common sense applies and juries are unpredictable. I read an recent artcle by Masaad Ayoob which explained a few things juries do not like, regardless of the law:
* "Cop killer" type bullets
* Disabled safeties, including magazine last round safety
* Reduced trigger pull pressure
* Other performance gun modifications
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...thwest/stories/032807dntexcastle.241e482.html
But of course common sense applies and juries are unpredictable. I read an recent artcle by Masaad Ayoob which explained a few things juries do not like, regardless of the law:
* "Cop killer" type bullets
* Disabled safeties, including magazine last round safety
* Reduced trigger pull pressure
* Other performance gun modifications
Indiana Wash
Member
Yes, Texas has a stand your ground law, not really a castle doctrine. However, shooting at someone making an escapein a parking lot is not standing your ground.
I read that article too. It was good. One thing it pointed out that I had not considered was to never say that your gun went off accidentally or that it just went off. According to the article, you should say that you intentionally fired your gun. Otherwise, self defense does not apply and you have just committed reckless homicide or some similar offense.
I read that article too. It was good. One thing it pointed out that I had not considered was to never say that your gun went off accidentally or that it just went off. According to the article, you should say that you intentionally fired your gun. Otherwise, self defense does not apply and you have just committed reckless homicide or some similar offense.
mjwalsh
6 bay SS w/laundromat
I just saw a post in one of the self service laundry forums that said that wasp spray shoots farther & blinds the person until they get an antidote at an emergency room of a hospital. Supposedly, some people in law enforcement are promoting that instead of pepper spray in some parts of the country in some situations. I am not familiar with the MSDS of that stuff!
pitzerwm
Active member
I also read about the wasp spray and for your employees and around the house, business a can is damn cheap insurance and it does shoot great. I've only used it on wasp, and it will knock them right out of the sky.
