Tell me about this R/O system (pics)

[Mach1]

This is the R/O and softener(?? I assume that's it because of the salt) system on a small 3-bay car was I am buying in Phoenix AZ where the water is extremely hard.

Right now it gets used 50 to 60 gallons a day.

I tested the low pressure spot free rinse on a black car... is it supposed to eliminate 100% of spots or just most of the spots?

Any idea why the charcoal canister is disconnected and what this means?

The float in the storage tank is always sticking causing it to go dry, anyway to fix this?

Is this system completely obsolete or can I get away with just upgrading/patching it a bit?

I understand a replacement system would be around $4,000-5,000???

Thanks!!!

 

[MEP001]

If you learn how it operates you can probably maintain it as is for years.

The float is easily replaced.

The charcoal filter is to remove chlorine which will ruin a TFC membrane. There are membranes that can resist chlorine but they don't flow as well.

If the system is working 100%, there should be no water spots left on any car. First place to start would be the softener - if it's working properly it would be best to add a pretreatment interlock to shut down RO production while the softener regenerates.

You'll need a water hardness test kit, a chlorine test kit and a TDS meter.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

I agree with MEP001's response, but I'd say it a bit more forcefully:
Replace your float valve now. As in Right now.
Test the chlorine, hardness, and TDS. You can get kits to do that at any car wash supply (kleen-rite, windtrax, dultmeier, etc). Or amazon.com, or fleabay. Report back with your results, and also tell us the tips you use and the pressure SFR is delivered to the bay.

Regarding your question about whether SFR removes all the spots: As MEP said, it should eliminate 100% of the spots... IF it is set up correctly and IF you use it properly. I find that most people dont use it properly, the rest dont rinse thoroughly, resulting in partial spotting.

 

[mjwalsh]

Mach1 & others,

If your softened water coming into the RO system has a pH of between 6 & 7, a chlorine tolerant cellulose acetate membrane might work as good as a TFC membrane (which requires a charcoal filter for longevity). We have been using a buffer to lower the pH enough since 1987 ... so if your city water already has a lowered pH ... a cellulose acetate could make sense. Anybody out there with incoming city or well water with low enough pH? In my opinion, I really think that is the only time a cellulose acetate membrane could be practical. We are seriously considering changing to a charcoal-TFC because our city water pH coming in is over 9. We are not sure of all the technicalities of the changeover at this point.

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com

 

[mrfixit]

Chlorine needs to be removed prior to hitting the membranes. A work around is a small charcoal filter in a blue filter housing if your only using 50g a day. But won't last as long.

Test the TDs of the ro water to see if its below 16 the closer to zero the better.

Keep an eye on those beams that tanks pretty heavy when full.

 

[MEP001]

Chlorine needs to be removed prior to hitting the membranes. A work around is a small charcoal filter in a blue filter housing if your only using 50g a day. But won't last as long.

A CA membrane would be a much better solution.

Test the TDs of the ro water to see if its below 16 the closer to zero the better.

30 and below is sufficient.

 

[mjwalsh]

Chlorine needs to be removed prior to hitting the membranes. A work around is a small charcoal filter in a blue filter housing if your only using 50g a day. But won't last as long.

Test the TDs of the ro water to see if its below 16 the closer to zero the better.

Keep an eye on those beams that tanks pretty heavy when full.

MrFixit & others,

Is this what you are referring to? http://www.filterwater.com/p-135-high-flow-whole-house-filter.aspx

It looks like the filter only specifications of up to 60psi 6gpm & up to 80,000 total gallon ($165 filter CH Chloramine Reducing version) longevity could possibly be an alternative to a usually used much larger "normal for our industry" for a 6 bay wand only car wash. The space saving for our equipment room would be helpful. Am I overlooking something in the specifications for it to work adequately for a single membrane 4" x 40" Specialty Equipment RO Spot Free System?

Our pH buffer tank (with acid pump) right now takes up about a 30" diameter by 48" height which is a pain plus the unmixed 20 gal concentrated acid barrel which is also not so wonderful about the CA membrane in a high pH city water situation.

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com

 

[mrfixit]

The larger 4x20 gac carbon blocks could work for a small system with little use.. but really only as a stop gap measure because of the low amount of the carbon. I wouldn't use it regularly. I had a problem with my carbon tank I would use it temporarily. One 4*40 membrane should only need around 5gpm flow. https://www.filtersfast.com/mobile/20-Inch-Big-Blue-Carbon-cat.asp

I've seen some smaller systems with the carbon blocks.. But when I looked back closer they still recommended activated carbon filtration. The small filter was just another layer of protection it seems. Like this one - http://www.apswater.com/specsheet-m...e=CRO1800BT+Commercial+Reverse+Osmosis+System

A new carbon bed for the current tank would be the most efficient course of action. It would last magnitudes longer without changing. Who knows whats wrong with the old one, maybe the bed is still good.

@OP

I'm still not sure what the yellow tube is on the wall?. It looks like its got the 21" membrane housing on the stand there.

I tested the low pressure spot free rinse on a black car... is it supposed to eliminate 100% of spots or just most of the spots?

The water won't spot.. But the proper way to test is with a TDs meter. At the output, tank and wands to confirm no contamination at the wands due to leaking valves from other options mixing into the ro, depending on how its plumbed.

 

[mjwalsh]

I wonder if the following would be a good choice for some of us who do not have a charcoal filter with tank set up?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-X-18-Acti...a&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&sd=291438618697&rt=nc

Would the fact that there is no automatic backflush on that item be a potential problem? I like the smaller size than some 8" x 10" x 21".

I am concerned about the statement about shipping both ways ... the whole unit back to them to replenish the Charcoal when it eventually needs it???

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com

 

[MEP001]

That filter is for drinking water. Why bother with a .2 cubic foot filter for $99 when the right one is only about $250? For that matter, why ship a .2 cubic foot filter to be refilled when you could easily dump it out into a trash can and pour in new media for about $10?

 

[mjwalsh]

That filter is for drinking water. Why bother with a .2 cubic foot filter for $99 when the right one is only about $250? For that matter, why ship a .2 cubic foot filter to be refilled when you could easily dump it out into a trash can and pour in new media for about $10?

OK .... So do most of the car wash suppliers sell just the activated charcoal filter setup portion of a single 4" x 40" membrane RO - Spot Free system? Are there other suppliers that also sell that portion of the system that can be adapted to a chlorine tolerant but not pH tolerant RO CA system that we were mislead to acquire? It would be nice to get a link from someone to one of those more practical charcoal filter setup suitable for a 6 bay self serve ... that are not just for "drinking water" improvement.

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com

 

[mrfixit]

You may want to review tgis link - http://www.watertreatmentguide.com/activated_carbon_filtration.htm

We have a standard non bw kinetico gac tank. The carbon lasts a long time.. But The auto backwash carbon tanks are the way to go, you can find a 1cu ft setup for as low as 350. The flow rates on some are really low though, but I think that's considering at a very low pressure like 5-10psi, so most us are at 40-80 psi incoming water pressure. Dultmier has 3/4 cu tanks. Kleenrite has airlogic systems that are small 21" membranes like the op. You can see what gac tank they use on those..

The bigger it is the more flow and capacity you'll have, with less maintenance.

You may want to check local water treatment suppliers to avoid shipping charges.

 

[mjwalsh]

MrFixIt & others,

Thanks!

It looks like Dultmeier might make the most sense with their $439 autobackflush L0005FL. It looks like it is within Speedee's regional delivery for us so freight should not be too bad. I am not sure what kind of settings is the best for the autobackflush???

Anybody else see a specific charcoal filter that is a better buy. I could not find the 1 cu ft one for the $350 you suggested. We have about 60 PSI softened water coming into our 5 micron sediment pre-filter now so hopefully there will not be too much of flow drop for our system???

https://www.dultmeier.com/catpages/e1027.pdf

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com

 

[MEP001]

They're a lot more expensive than I remember, but this is what you should have for a single 4x40 membrane RO unit.

http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/fleck-5600-backwashing-carbon-filter-1-5-cubic-foot-315.html

 

[mac]

I am surprised that no one mentioned the incredibly sloppy way the room looked. When you see hoses ran like the proverbial drunken sailor, you know an idiot installed it.

 

[MEP001]

I've seen a lot worse.

 

[mmurra]

We need help on our RO carbon filter. We have never changed the carbon after 15 years and several softener failures and are sure that we need to replace the carbon media. We have an oversized 13"x54" media tank for our 6+2. Should we either replace the media or buy a new tank with carbon? Suggestions? Where can we purchase the carbon media? Is it worth replacing the media vs the whole tank? Thanks!

 

[MEP001]

The best way to test for chlorine is to check it at the RO reject. It will be concentrated there so if there's even a trace it will show up. I like to check it about once a month, and you should catch it before it damages the membranes that way.

There are many places to get the carbon media. It will probably cost more to get it locally than most online places, but you'll save shipping, so shop around.

I see no good reason to replace the tank. I've replaced media in 12 cu. ft. softeners by myself. It's not that hard.

It's not difficult to do, although with a tank that size you might want two people. The easiest way is to siphon out what you can so you can move the tank where you can dump and clean it, then refill it in place.

 

[mjwalsh]

http://www.aquascience.net/gac/index.cfm?id=212 This one seems to have the FLECK 5600 SXT DIGITAL CONTROL with backflush.

I am wondering at how many pass through gallons this specific control should be set up at as to when to backflush? It seems like if it was setup per time interval to backflush ... it would not be optimized as good as a properly calculated gallon usage trigger.

Mike

 

[MEP001]

You don't need to backflush a carbon filter based on a gallon usage.