Wet Environment Dryer
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robert roman
Bob Roman
“….wet environment dryer that is installed right after the rinse arch?”
Some refer to this as flash dry technique. I learned it from Vince MacNeil in 2008.
“Does it make a considerable difference in drying effect on vehicle?”
If it’s done right, yes it can.
What’s done right? Looking down producers would be arranged in a V formation.
In this case, system was 65’ conveyor set at 60 cars per hour line speed with five 15-hp producers (Tech 21 smart nozzles).
Also used high quality drying agent, surface contact angle 90 degrees. Dries even better with total body.
Some refer to this as flash dry technique. I learned it from Vince MacNeil in 2008.
“Does it make a considerable difference in drying effect on vehicle?”
If it’s done right, yes it can.
What’s done right? Looking down producers would be arranged in a V formation.
In this case, system was 65’ conveyor set at 60 cars per hour line speed with five 15-hp producers (Tech 21 smart nozzles).
Also used high quality drying agent, surface contact angle 90 degrees. Dries even better with total body.
Earl Weiss
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Went to see a few. One of the most interesting was one BEFORE the DA arch. While I don't think they saved on HP or was more effective than having same # of producers further down the line they could use less DA because it was put on a car with less water. It may also aid drying in tunnels short on drip space in effect mechanically lengthening the drip space if you get what I mean.
On the Sonny's website in a video AA says the new theory is to keep the water moving.
On the Sonny's website in a video AA says the new theory is to keep the water moving.
TEEBOX
Member
I have an extra blower arch that I would like to try after the rain arch. I just need to purchase a new blower. I'll will let you know when I install and my opinion. It's just one blower right?
Washmee
Fullservice Tunnel
I really think the single blower concept is best utilized right after the last fresh water rinse and before any drying agent is applied. For flash drying ypu would want the full force of all your blowers applied at once.
Ric
Cantree Member
I talked to the Sonny's reps at the Nashville show about flash dry. They said one producer, centered, 54" from last rinse arch was the ticket.
We also have an extra arch that we plan on using for the wet environment dryer. I also saw on Youtube videos what Ric is mentioning in terms of placement of the dryer immediately after the last rain arch. I do think that it is an interesting idea to place it BEFORE the DA though....logically it seems like that would decrease the amount of DA that is required.....
Washmee
Fullservice Tunnel
If you watch this video of the Belanger SpinLite wash you will see that they have positioned an entire blower system before the final drying agent arch.
[video=youtube;SGBbYEa9p8o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGBbYEa9p8o&list=PLlV5uS6bmlO7gX7lY-vJtmtSkTGx34Gvs[/video]
[video=youtube;SGBbYEa9p8o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGBbYEa9p8o&list=PLlV5uS6bmlO7gX7lY-vJtmtSkTGx34Gvs[/video]
Jon,
It looks like there is a drying agent arch in between the dryers on the video. If so it reminds me of the old setting rinse many operators used to assist drying. That system used to work well if you had a good high pressure rinse and decent dwell time before the dryer. I would be concerned about apply drying agent in that location especially if the vehicle was not completely clean before that application. Another problem would be vehicles with dull finishes but they usually don't dry that well anyway. It will be interesting to see how this system works out when it is used throughout the country.
It looks like there is a drying agent arch in between the dryers on the video. If so it reminds me of the old setting rinse many operators used to assist drying. That system used to work well if you had a good high pressure rinse and decent dwell time before the dryer. I would be concerned about apply drying agent in that location especially if the vehicle was not completely clean before that application. Another problem would be vehicles with dull finishes but they usually don't dry that well anyway. It will be interesting to see how this system works out when it is used throughout the country.
Earl Weiss
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You indicate "Old setting rinse". Guess we are old. Still use this system. What is the "New" system?
I wrote that because not many, if any new washes use a setting rinse especially tunnels 80' or less. The "new system" if there is one is a high pressure or rain arch usually followed by an RO arch. Like you, I think the "old system" does a better job.
Earl Weiss
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I was truly seeking wisdom. I am not that familiar with RO but my gut says it's another expense / something to maintain.
I've learned lots from this forum and other places.
Decades ago I learned about a
"Setting Arch / rinse." It's counter intuitive to think putting more plain water on after DA makes the DA work better, but it does. Years ago a rep suggested that in my short tunnel I put a second top nozzle 4 " after the first top setting rinse nozzle to improve performance. Don't know why it helped, but it does.
A setting arch usually applies hard or tap water water which creates a much greater surface tension than RO water which has creates much lower surface tension and tends to flatten out on the surface. If a tunnel does not have a decent blower it would be preferable to not have a setting arch to avoid spotting but with a good blower a setting arch makes for a much dryer vehicle again assuming the vehicle is clean. A dirty car is much more difficult if not impossible to dry well.
robert roman
Bob Roman
Nice video.
There is a lot more going on with this tunnel than just the drying approach.
Notice absence of water over-spray inside the tunnel as compared to say a Sonny’s hybrid with lots of expensive high-pressure equipment. I suspect this tunnel uses a lot less fresh water and energy than comparable length tunnel. Same for drying approach. Looks like two sets of three producers or 90 hp. This is pretty low for such a long tunnel. Then there is the slow turning, quieter, soft material brushes sort of like N/S’ auto-hand-wash approach.
Combined with lights and foamers, Belanger has a differentiated product for operators and consumers.
As for RO water, it is no different than tap water except the contaminants and any minerals have been filtered out or rejected. Main purpose in carwash is to help prevent remaining water drops from leaving spots. This is the reason it’s put on last. Drying agent contains contaminants (i.e. soap, mineral oil, etc.).
Judging drying effectives is tricky because you have to consider the condition of vehicles getting washed.
For example, washes get cars with relatively fresh coat of wax was well as those that are never waxed and everything in between. You also have to consider product being applied. Hot wax beads and dries better than drying agent.
There is also a lot of friction in this tunnel, and I suspect the “clean” has hand-finished qualities. So, generally speaking, the potential for producing a dry car would be greater. Cleaner car leads to dryer car.
There is a lot more going on with this tunnel than just the drying approach.
Notice absence of water over-spray inside the tunnel as compared to say a Sonny’s hybrid with lots of expensive high-pressure equipment. I suspect this tunnel uses a lot less fresh water and energy than comparable length tunnel. Same for drying approach. Looks like two sets of three producers or 90 hp. This is pretty low for such a long tunnel. Then there is the slow turning, quieter, soft material brushes sort of like N/S’ auto-hand-wash approach.
Combined with lights and foamers, Belanger has a differentiated product for operators and consumers.
As for RO water, it is no different than tap water except the contaminants and any minerals have been filtered out or rejected. Main purpose in carwash is to help prevent remaining water drops from leaving spots. This is the reason it’s put on last. Drying agent contains contaminants (i.e. soap, mineral oil, etc.).
Judging drying effectives is tricky because you have to consider the condition of vehicles getting washed.
For example, washes get cars with relatively fresh coat of wax was well as those that are never waxed and everything in between. You also have to consider product being applied. Hot wax beads and dries better than drying agent.
There is also a lot of friction in this tunnel, and I suspect the “clean” has hand-finished qualities. So, generally speaking, the potential for producing a dry car would be greater. Cleaner car leads to dryer car.
Washmee
Fullservice Tunnel
Robert, there is a high pressure rinse arch just before the wet environment drying area at the Belanger wash.
As for RO water, it is no different than tap water except the contaminants and any minerals have been filtered out or rejected. Main purpose in carwash is to help prevent remaining water drops from leaving spots. This is the reason it’s put on last. Drying agent contains contaminants.
Robert, if you mean as far as the chemistry of tap water I'm fine with that but RO water has a much lower surface tension which means it "flattens" out on the surface which is not what you want rinse water to do. Since it does not leave spots it is probably best after the dryer when there is no wipe down.
Robert, if you mean as far as the chemistry of tap water I'm fine with that but RO water has a much lower surface tension which means it "flattens" out on the surface which is not what you want rinse water to do. Since it does not leave spots it is probably best after the dryer when there is no wipe down.
robert roman
Bob Roman
“RO water has a much lower surface tension which means it "flattens" out on the surface which is not what you want rinse water to do.”
Rain water is soft, typically mineral free. Tap water is generally hard, chlorinated and possibly fluorinated. RO water has no contaminants or minerals.
All are water, H2O.
Untreated windshield glass has surface contact angle of 25 degrees.
So, when drops of water (rain, tap or RO) fall on glass the water spreads out across the surface making process of drying with forced air difficult.
If hydrophobic agent like mineral oil is added to water drops (rain, tap or RO), the drops will create a surface contact angle of 80 degrees when they fall on the surface.
The water will rise up forming a bubble (beading) literally trying to get away from the surface (water hating) making it easier to dry with forced air.
If Rain-X is applied, the surface contact angle is like 110 degrees. So, bubbles (beading) are tighter (smaller and higher) and seem to fly off the surface making it even easier to dry.
This is why lot washers use hydrophilic agents which cause water to sheet (reverse of beading) making it easier to dry in the sun and without leaving circular water spots.
Rain water is soft, typically mineral free. Tap water is generally hard, chlorinated and possibly fluorinated. RO water has no contaminants or minerals.
All are water, H2O.
Untreated windshield glass has surface contact angle of 25 degrees.
So, when drops of water (rain, tap or RO) fall on glass the water spreads out across the surface making process of drying with forced air difficult.
If hydrophobic agent like mineral oil is added to water drops (rain, tap or RO), the drops will create a surface contact angle of 80 degrees when they fall on the surface.
The water will rise up forming a bubble (beading) literally trying to get away from the surface (water hating) making it easier to dry with forced air.
If Rain-X is applied, the surface contact angle is like 110 degrees. So, bubbles (beading) are tighter (smaller and higher) and seem to fly off the surface making it even easier to dry.
This is why lot washers use hydrophilic agents which cause water to sheet (reverse of beading) making it easier to dry in the sun and without leaving circular water spots.
50 years ago when I worked at my uncle's car wash "hot wax" was 5 gallons of kerosene in a 55 gallon of water that was stirred constantly. That solution would bead up on a carpet. Of course it also created a filmy look on the vehicle which some thought was protection. We have come a long way chemically since then - thank God.
robert roman
Bob Roman
I’d say more environmentally responsible.
In 1966, many carwash fit right in with dirty steel mills, coal-fired power plants with no emission controls - caustic soda, HF, mineral spirits, kerosene, nylon spot remover, etc.
Remember the mess of removing Cosmoline coating on foreign made cars (i.e. Buick Opel) or clean up of undercoating and rust-proofing. LOL
Phew, plenty of solvents.
In 1966, many carwash fit right in with dirty steel mills, coal-fired power plants with no emission controls - caustic soda, HF, mineral spirits, kerosene, nylon spot remover, etc.
Remember the mess of removing Cosmoline coating on foreign made cars (i.e. Buick Opel) or clean up of undercoating and rust-proofing. LOL
Phew, plenty of solvents.
