Dilution Ratios For Chemicals in Wash Tunnel

[Earl Weiss]

Earl,

Do you happen to know how many ounces of drying agent you are using per vehicle? I'm currently using an LMI pump to dispense the drying agent and I wanted to see if I am in the correct ball park for ounces/vehicle. I am currently using .02 ounces/vehicle.

1. .02 oz / vehicle? 2/100s of an ounce? 352,000 vehicles per 55 gallon drum?
2. I typicaly don't check oz per vehicle. Only tip size per product.

 

[Washmee]

I find it hard to belive that you can get any drying agent to perform well at .02 oz per vehicle.

 

[rph9168]

Drying agents can be tricky. They have a "window" where they won't work if you use too much or too little. It also helps them a lot to have the vehicle's surface either neutral or acidic when they are applied. They also do not work well useless the surface is clean. Any residual film or soil inhibits drying. .02 ounce per vehicle sounds a little light unless you a using a premium drying agent. Most work best between 1/2 to 2/3rds an ounce or more. While LMI's are good at dispensing small amounts they also pulse so there may not be a constant stream of drying agent going on unless the chemical is diffused before it is applied.

 

[hkim310]

RPH9168, are you currently using any LMI pumps at your wash? We inherited a couple of these pumps from the previous owner and are being used for our sealer wax and drying agent. Its somewhat difficult trying to figure out exactly what the dilution ratio is using these pumps. I downloaded the manual which states the following - Pump Output = Max Pump Output x % Speed x % Stroke. The max pump output is 25 gallons per day. The speed and stroke max out at 100%. When I calculate, I get the following: Pump Output = 25 gpd x 1 x 1 = 25 gpd. It states to divide by the number of hours in a day (24) = 1.04 gallons per hour. Converting 1.04 gallons to ounces = 133.12 ounces per hour. A vehicle is under our rain arch which applies the drying agent for roughly 5 seconds. There are 60 seconds in a minute and 60 minutes in an hour = 3600 seconds. Dividing 133.12 ounces per hour / 3600 seconds = 0.04 oz per second. Multiplying 0.04 oz per second x 5 seconds = .2. Does that mean even at max output this pump can only produce 0.2 oz per car of product? I am planning on trying to give LMI a call tomorrow but wanted to ask any of you if you all had any experience with these pumps?

 

[Earl Weiss]

...................... A vehicle is under our rain arch which applies the drying agent for roughly 5 seconds. QUOTE]

I think Sonny's uses 20 feet for length of a standard car plus space. (A Prius is just under 15 feet) At 1 foot per second you have a conveyor speed of 180CPH This is fairly quick. If a car average 15 feet is under your rain arch for 5 seconds your conveyor is traveling at 540 CPH which is a practical impossibility for a roller conveyor and insane for a flat belt or any other conveyor.

So, I would check that 5 second figure.

 

[Washmee]

The only real way to check consumption is by using volumetrics. Get a graduated measuring container and fill it with product. Insert the suction line into the container and measure the amount used after several cars. I usually like to run about 10 cars before I measure the volume used. Take that volume and divide by the number of cars and now you know what your average usage really is. Any other method is nothing but a complcated math problem and speculation.

 

[hkim310]

Thanks for the responses guys. Jon, I plan on performing that volumetric to find out exactly how much is being applied for the chemicals I'm using from these LMI pumps. Earl, excuse my ignorance, but how did you calculate those figures? I timed and measured our chain speed and we are running at 160 CPH. When I stated 5 seconds, I assumed this is how much time (with a stop watch) that the vehicle is actually under the rain arch itself. Thanks again everyone for your help......

 

[Washmee]

That is a very fast chain speed. I never run more than 10 seconds to cover 10 feet. At that speed I can easily run over 120cph. With the average vehicle measuring 16ft it will take 16 seconds for it to pass under my drying agent arch. Most of the year I run my conveyor at around 14-16 seconds for 10 feet. I get a very dry car at those speeds.

 

[hkim310]

Jon, the Sonny's catalog has a reference chart for conveyor speed and it states that in 15 seconds if the distance is 10 feet that is considered 120 CPH. All of their calculations are based on 15 seconds. Did you do your calculation based on 10 seconds or 15 seconds?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Jon, the Sonny's catalog has a reference chart for conveyor speed and it states that in 15 seconds if the distance is 10 feet that is considered 120 CPH. All of their calculations are based on 15 seconds. Did you do your calculation based on 10 seconds or 15 seconds?

I think Jon may be talking about actual production vs perfect production line speed.

Works out the same as my post #25 . Standard car length with spacing = 20 feet. 10 feet / 15 sec = 20 feet / 30 seconds = 120CPH perfect production speed. 1ft / sec = 60 feet / min = 3 cars per minute.

At fast line speeds you can lose a good chunk of perfect production volume to less than perfect loading factors.

Since I am lazy and in a hurry rather than wait for 10 cars when (rarely) I do volumetrics I simply figure 20 seconds per car average since arch time is typicaly not on for the space, flip the function on and check the volume used after 4 minutes or so and divide volume by 12.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Jon, the Sonny's catalog has a reference chart for conveyor speed and it states that in 15 seconds if the distance is 10 feet that is considered 120 CPH. All of their calculations are based on 15 seconds. Did you do your calculation based on 10 seconds or 15 seconds?

It occurred to me That I may not have answered your question.

Determine an average on time for your DA arch. I would suggest an average of 20 seconds. Why? 1 ft / sec is a pretty quick speed and equates to an perfect production speed of 180 CPH. We can get away with that in winter with salt covered cars if it's not too cold. A prius is just under 15 feet which at 15 feet would be about 15 seconds. Choose 20 seconds for a 15 foot car which is a little slower. and goes into 60 seconds easily. If you think the "On Time" Should be less or more adjust accordingly. Lets use the 20 second example.

Fill a small measuring cup or graduated Cylinder with easily readable oz gradients with concentrate solution. Make sure your metering pumpm hose is also full of that solution. Put pump suction hose and turn on function. Note use after 2 minutes = 6 cars, or 4 minutes = 12 cars.

 

[Washmee]

It occurred to me That I may not have answered your question.

Determine an average on time for your DA arch. I would suggest an average of 20 seconds. Why? 1 ft / sec is a pretty quick speed and equates to an perfect production speed of 180 CPH. We can get away with that in winter with salt covered cars if it's not too cold. A prius is just under 15 feet which at 15 feet would be about 15 seconds. Choose 20 seconds for a 15 foot car which is a little slower. and goes into 60 seconds easily. If you think the "On Time" Should be less or more adjust accordingly. Lets use the 20 second example.

Fill a small measuring cup or graduated Cylinder with easily readable oz gradients with concentrate solution. Make sure your metering pumpm hose is also full of that solution. Put pump suction hose and turn on function. Note use after 2 minutes = 6 cars, or 4 minutes = 12 cars.

Great analysis Earl. When he said he timed a car going under hia D/A arch at 5 seconds , that raised a huge red flag for me. That would mean his chain speed would have to be in excess of 20 feet in 10 seconds. In my 37 years experience , I have never seen such a chain speed.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Great analysis Earl. When he said he timed a car going under hia D/A arch at 5 seconds , that raised a huge red flag for me. That would mean his chain speed would have to be in excess of 20 feet in 10 seconds. In my 37 years experience , I have never seen such a chain speed.

A cople of posts show some fundamental issues with calculations. the ".02 oz" and the 5 second one.

As a practical matter 5 seconds for a 15 foot car is 3 feet a second or a production speed of 360 CPH and without a steep downhill grade (which you don't want for other reasons) on a roller / pusher conveyor even at 240 CPH or so you will have the rollers pasing under the wheel of a stopped car rather than pushing it. So, that speed would be a practical impossibility.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Always made my own Foamers and a rep recently suggested "Mr. Foamer". Not cheap at about $450.00 per set. Went to see them ata location. They did a great job but I could not make any comparison since he was using different product and metering pumps whereas I use Hydrominders. So, I took a gamble. Took out one of my triple Foam Foam Sticks and replaced it wth the Mr. Foamer. No other changes. The Mr. Foamer unit actualy had more holes than my Stick.

Needed to reduce the Flo Jet PSI from 25 to 15 so cars would not have foam on them after the rinse and Blowers. Figured if it saves one half of 1 cent a car the payback is relatively short.

 

[JMMUSTANG]

Earl thanks for the post.
So your're still using your Hydrominders and Flo Jets, you did not buy his whole setup? I not sure but I thought he uses the Dosatron now?
I've was down in Florida so I called Jim to look at some locations that have the Mr.Foamer with him but he was in Tampa installing a unit.
I'll be up in Chicago next month. I'd like to stop by and see your set up. What's the address of the wash?

 

[Earl Weiss]

So your're still using your Hydrominders and Flo Jets, you did not buy his whole setup? I not sure but I thought he uses the Dosatron now?

I'll be up in Chicago next month. I'd like to stop by and see your set up. What's the address of the wash?

The "He" was a local operator I know. He uses metering pumps. The simplest way I know to test for efficacy is to take a piece of equipment or chemical and substitute it for what I was using, so that is what I did.

This location is located in Niles. 900 Civic Center Drive. it's in the Shopping center at Oakton & Waukegan. Let me know when you are in town.

My other locations are all on the North Side of the City.

I now saw TSS has Lighted Foam Sticks. I may buy a set at the show and see how they work.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Further Update. After turning down Flo Jets to 15 PSi still got great foam but had trouble rinsing from the channels and foam blew out at Tunnel end. Have now gone from Ultra Lean Pink to ultra lean purple. (360-470 / 1) Had to trun Flo Jets up to 20 PSI but rinsing is better. May go down to a green tip.

 

[hkim310]

Sorry for the wrong information, I am still learning about car washing day to day. Thank you all for all of your help, I get a wealth of information on this site. We slowed the chain speed down a bit and now we are able to get a much dryer car.

On a side note, I'm amazed Earl that you can get to such low dilutions with your chemicals at your wash. Is your triple foam a Kleen Rite product?

 

[rph9168]

Someone already said it but it bears repeating. Dilution ratios listed are really more of a suggested starting point than a rule on how it should be diluted. Differences in equipment, water quality and other variables have an effect on how a product performs. Car wash chemicals are not a "set it and forget it" proposition.

 

[Earl Weiss]

On a side note, I'm amazed Earl that you can get to such low dilutions with your chemicals at your wash. Is your triple foam a Kleen Rite product?

Actualy amazed my self that the Mr. Foamer works so well. Yes, KR Triple foam.