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[MEP001]

Why do you need to power the solenoid with a SPDT relay to take the load off the timer? Surely the water solenoid doesn't draw that much? Maybe 6 watts or so? What am I missing here?

It's not to take the load off anything, it was a suggestion in case he used a N.O. solenoid because he didn't have an extra wire from the bay for the rinse solenoid. He never replied to that question so I still don't know if that's the case or not.

 

[2Biz]

You could use this valve http://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-3397-dole-dual-inlet-valve.aspx

Randy,
Do you use this valve for switching between cold and hot water? It only has a 3/8 outlet..Is this big enough? I guess if its pressurized it would be ok, but for a gravity feed system, I'm wondering if it would restrict flow.

 

[MEP001]

I've seen that valve used on a gravity-feed system with two tanks, but I would use an Erie before I'd use a Dole solenoid. An Erie can't fail and starve the pump.

 

[RockyMountain]

It's not to take the load off anything, it was a suggestion in case he used a N.O. solenoid because he didn't have an extra wire from the bay for the rinse solenoid. He never replied to that question so I still don't know if that's the case or not.

Not sure what question I didn't answer, but the reason I tried the NO was because I didn't have the extra wire from the bay for the rinse solenoid. So no matter what I am going to need a Normally Closed solenoid on the rinse side and figure out a way to open it when rinse is selected.

You are suggesting to use the wire that turns the motor on to also open the solenoid and then break that connection when the HP soap is selected, correct?

I know this is a delayed response, but I was busy fly fishing for rainbows! Anyone want to go?

 

[MEP001]

Not sure what question I didn't answer, but the reason I tried the NO was because I didn't have the extra wire from the bay for the rinse solenoid.

That's what I had to assume.

So no matter what I am going to need a Normally Closed solenoid on the rinse side and figure out a way to open it when rinse is selected.

I've done some similar things with an Omron relay from mouser.com (about $6, just soldered wires onto the terminals).

This should help:

Motor output from switch goes to terminal labeled Motor, normally-closed side of circuit labeled Rinse goes to rinse solenoid. Soap output from switch goes to hot of relay coil (labeled Soap). Right now when your rinse is selected and you're rinsing with hot water, only the motor starter is energized. The same power is shunted through the relay to energize the rinse solenoid, and when soap is selected the relay is energized and the circuit to the rinse solenoid is broken.

 

[RockyMountain]

We’re not building a Nuclear Submarine here, these are pretty simple systems, a Normally open valve isn’t going to work on the city water supply to the pump, when pump is stop there isn’t anything to stop the flow of water out to bay. You need to use a Normally closed solenoid valve with a SPDT relay to take the solenoid valve load off the timer. With only 3 bays I wouldn’t mess around with a gravity fed hot water system I’d just go direct feed and be done with it. You could use this valve http://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-3397-dole-dual-inlet-valve.aspx Did they get your Navien 240 installed on Friday?

The boiler quit leaking. Probably temporarily, but since I'll be the one putting in the new demand heater, I am on hold right now.

Unfortunately, my nuclear sub was built 28 years ago and upgrading systems brings a challenge. Direct plumbing hot water would mean a new injection system for soap as well as designing a bullet proof hot water supply system that on very rare occasions would need to supply 16 gallons a minute, as we do have a fourth outside bay that is only used from late spring through the fall. Holding tanks with a back-up cold water release for these rare times will avoid having to shell out the $ for such a system while keeping hot water for customers 95+% of the time. So figuring out a way to open a solenoid without running new wires may be simple to you, but with my limited electrical abilities, it presents a challenge.

 

[RockyMountain]

Here is a picture of my current pump stand set-up.


The picture in the middle is one of the pumps with then new set-up (thanks 2Biz and MEP001). The two pictures on either side are above the pumps. I'm assuming the motors are 120 volt that are turned on by a 24 volt signal when the dial is on rinse or HP soap. Honestly I don't know how this happens or even where it happens! Is a set up like this familiar to anyone?

 

[MEP001]

I can't tell anything by those tiny pictures. You can sign up for a free account at imageshack.us and post them full size.

The contactors have 24V coils in them just like a solenoid. You would take the same 24V power that engages the contactor and run that to the relay as indicated. Same with the soap solenoid.

 

[RockyMountain]

I can't tell anything by those tiny pictures. You can sign up for a free account at imageshack.us and post them full size.

The contactors have 24V coils in them just like a solenoid. You would take the same 24V power that engages the contactor and run that to the relay as indicated. Same with the soap solenoid.

I thought those pics might turn out better. Try these.

 

[MEP001]

Do you have 6-position switches in the bays?

The red unit above each contactor is probably a 1-second delay relay. You would use the output from that to the NC throughput of the relay.

 

[2Biz]

I'm assuming the motors are 120 volt that are turned on by a 24 volt signal when the dial is on rinse or HP soap. Honestly I don't know how this happens or even where it happens! Is a set up like this familiar to anyone?

The contactors look like 3-phase. Do you know how to use a voltage meter?

The terminal strips are connection points to and from your rotary switch. You really need to record or label each connection to help with upgrades or trouble shooting. Its very important to know what connection goes where and what it does.

 

[MEP001]

You'd be amazed at how few car wash owners/operators have even the slightest clue about any of the wiring.

 

[2Biz]

I know its pretty over whelming the first time you set foot in the ER after buying a CW....I was like, what the hell did I get myself into?

One of the first things I did was document the wiring to and from the ER to the Bay Switch...This document helped tremendiously:

http://bcoweb.com/photos/8+pos+dix.pdf

KR doesn't have this exact diagram on their site anymore, but I kept a copy on my PC for reference. I marked the diagram with the color code of wire and the function that matched the output on the rotary switch. It will be very valuable to have this when you need to trouble shoot....

 

[mjwalsh]

I'm assuming the motors are 120 volt that are turned on by a 24 volt signal when the dial is on rinse or HP soap.

RockyMountain - Skilled Fly Fisherman,

Maybe it's just me but I would say that it is much more likely that your main pump motors are wired up for higher voltage than 120VAC. Check to see If you have a double wide or triple wide breaker vs a single 120 breaker for each bay in your electrical panel to somewhat verify.

A very affordable mulitmeter will help you to see how the current flows along with simple schematics &/or diagrams.

Be careful ... gauge your limits as you go ... you do not want to: 1. electrocute someone including yourself 2. you want to avoid frying expensive electrical components. 3. not properly consider the USA constitution.

mike

 

[MEP001]

Maybe it's just me but I would say that it is much more likely that your main pump motors are wired up for higher voltage than 120VAC.

It's obvious that they are because it's 3-phase. It's also irrelevant because one wouldn't tap into the motor primary wiring to power a 24V relay or solenoid.

 

[RockyMountain]

Do you have 6-position switches in the bays?

The red unit above each contactor is probably a 1-second delay relay. You would use the output from that to the NC throughput of the relay.

It's an 8 position rotary switch.

If the unit is a 1 second delay, it doesn't work. As the dial is spun you can hear all the solenoids opening and closing immediately. This is on my list for a future fix/upgrade.

 

[RockyMountain]

The contactors look like 3-phase. Do you know how to use a voltage meter?

The terminal strips are connection points to and from your rotary switch. You really need to record or label each connection to help with upgrades or trouble shooting. Its very important to know what connection goes where and what it does.

I'm adequate with my voltage meters. When I find out how the strips are wired (and I find rinse) can I simply pull wires from there to the NC solenoid?

 

[2Biz]

I would start with the terminal strip. You should be able to trace the 24v coil wire from your 3-phase contactor back to the terminal strip. Surely all the wires from the rotary switch come into the ER and hook up to the terminal strip. The picture you posted indicates this. Basically what I was calling a control board is what you have. Terminal strips that connect the rotary switch connections to all your solenoids and 3 phase contactors to your pumps...

Using the diagram I linked to will help you figure out how the rotary switch and terminal strip are wired. Once you figure this out, it should be easy to pick up 24v rinse wires from the rotary.

 

[2Biz]

If the unit is a 1 second delay, it doesn't work. As the dial is spun you can hear all the solenoids opening and closing immediately. This is on my list for a future fix/upgrade.

The delay is for the motor contactor only...Its designed to help with "Rotary Switch Spinners". It will delay the motor start (So it won't start) when someone is spinning the rotary to a low pressure function. It helps with motor wear.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

I was busy fly fishing for rainbows! Anyone want to go?

Not a lot of outdoorsmen on this forum (afaik), but I still cant believe nobody responded to that!! Nice fish, nice scenery!

I dont fish, but consider yourself warned that if you make that kind of "offer" for any big game you're going to wake up with me on your doorstep!