Inherited CarWash with purchase of a lube shop

[Dan kamsickas]

How often are the RO membranes supposed to be replaced? This company told me rarely they told me to leave it alone. I have owned it 2 years, has never been replaced.

They're morons. There isn't a set timeline. The TDS meter is the best thing you did. When the TDS creeps above 30 and/or you have to crank the pressure over 200psi to get your output. Membranes produce 1.5-2gpm per membrane at 160-170psi depending on manufacture, water temperature, quality, etc.

 

[HeyVern]

How often are the RO membranes supposed to be replaced? This company told me rarely they told me to leave it alone. I have owned it 2 years, has never been replaced.

Mine are about 18 months old, I just replaced all of them last week. Two were still good but I replaced them anyway.

 

[DamandaKillion]

A RO with good quality membranes (98% efficient) should be able to get 650 TDS down to about 13 TDS.

Whoever did that install in your pictures should be ashamed. Looks like crap.

What’s sad. Is that’s after we cleaned a bunch of crap up. But yes!

 

[DamandaKillion]

I REALLY appreciate this input. I have been banging my head against a wall fighting to make this thing right. So much help and information from this post. THANK YOU!!

 

[The Waterboy]

Sorry for the delayed response, I just now got the notification for this thread. The TDS meter is a great tool but you don't need to concern yourself with testing the soft water or really anything at all except for the spot free water. Always test spot free water at the wand in the bay. Industry standard is any reading less than 50 ppm is considered "spot free." If you have over 50 at the wand then start going backwards to find the problem. I seriously doubt you have anything "DI" which stands for deionized water (which is VERY expensive and OVERKILL for any car wash), but you are probably referring to the water softener media tanks. Here is a rough flow chart for how most every wash is plumbed in.

Municipal water--->water softener--->activated carbon filter-->sediment filter-->reverse osmosis-->RO storage tank-->spot-free to bays
(All of the water for the wash should go through the water softener)

The RO membranes need to be fed softened (what the water softener does) and dechlorinated (what the carbon filter does) water to last. If the RO feed water is properly pre-treated, the membranes could last 10 years or more. If not properly pre-treated, the membranes could last as little as 4 months. You really should consider paying a water professional to at least make a trip out there to make sure that all of your equipment is installed properly, sized properly, set up/programmed properly, and functioning properly. There is a lot that goes into this side of a car wash and most people don't know what they are looking at. All that money spent on equipment won't matter one bit if it's not fine tuned.

 

[DamandaKillion]

Sorry for the delayed response, I just now got the notification for this thread. The TDS meter is a great tool but you don't need to concern yourself with testing the soft water or really anything at all except for the spot free water. Always test spot free water at the wand in the bay. Industry standard is any reading less than 50 ppm is considered "spot free." If you have over 50 at the wand then start going backwards to find the problem. I seriously doubt you have anything "DI" which stands for deionized water (which is VERY expensive and OVERKILL for any car wash), but you are probably referring to the water softener media tanks. Here is a rough flow chart for how most every wash is plumbed in.

Municipal water--->water softener--->activated carbon filter-->sediment filter-->reverse osmosis-->RO storage tank-->spot-free to bays
(All of the water for the wash should go through the water softener)

The RO membranes need to be fed softened (what the water softener does) and dechlorinated (what the carbon filter does) water to last. If the RO feed water is properly pre-treated, the membranes could last 10 years or more. If not properly pre-treated, the membranes could last as little as 4 months. You really should consider paying a water professional to at least make a trip out there to make sure that all of your equipment is installed properly, sized properly, set up/programmed properly, and functioning properly. There is a lot that goes into this side of a car wash and most people don't know what they are looking at. All that money spent on equipment won't matter one bit if it's not fine tuned.

I believe the blurry first one is the DI tank. It’s tucked in between both of the water tanks. There also the white tank, I have no clue what this is. I believe all water goes through it all.

It was a water professional that got me here to begin with. I wouldn’t even know where to begin with it all. I was shocked to find out almost all of the equipment in equipment room water filtration. Not actually car wash itself.

The testing is coming from the soft rinse tank. I will test from a bay though. Oddly enough I haven’t had water spot problems on self serve bays, just automatic.

I am doing some research myself so I can know what I am looking at. And make sure I am not getting hosed by the water specialist. Any learning resource suggestion would be amazing.

Thank you for your time!

PPM and TDS Same thing?

 

[Dan kamsickas]

Industry standard is any reading less than 50 ppm is considered "spot free."

Not sure where you get that from but I will guarantee you that if you have 50TDS, you're going to have spots on the car.

 

[The Waterboy]

Not sure where you get that from but I will guarantee you that if you have 50TDS, you're going to have spots on the car.

That's just what has always been the standard in my experience. I haven't ever had anyone complaining about spots at less than 50 ppm.

 

[The Waterboy]

I believe the blurry first one is the DI tank. It’s tucked in between both of the water tanks. There also the white tank, I have no clue what this is. I believe all water goes through it all.

It was a water professional that got me here to begin with. I wouldn’t even know where to begin with it all. I was shocked to find out almost all of the equipment in equipment room water filtration. Not actually car wash itself.

The testing is coming from the soft rinse tank. I will test from a bay though. Oddly enough I haven’t had water spot problems on self serve bays, just automatic.

I am doing some research myself so I can know what I am looking at. And make sure I am not getting hosed by the water specialist. Any learning resource suggestion would be amazing.

Thank you for your time!

PPM and TDS Same thing?

DI tanks contain mixed-bed DI resin that needs to be regenerated regularly and it's always done off-site at a regen plant because the process uses dangerous chemicals. Also, nothing in a car wash requires deionized water. If you do in-fact have a mixed bed DI tank, someone sold you something you don't need and I guarantee you it is exhausted and doing more harm than good. It is a strong tell that your water professional isn't that at all if you still have tanks and don't know what's in them. You might be shocked at how much water treatment is required sometimes (when the water is especially bad), after all water makes up the majority of soapy water. There is no such thing as a "soft rinse tank" so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. PPM and TDS are not the same thing. TDS is measured in PPM (sometimes). I hate to tell you but those labels you took pictures of don't have any useful information on them. In order to help you I would need overall pictures of your equipment and maybe a rough plumbing diagram if the hoses and connections aren't clearly visible in the photo.

 

[DamandaKillion]

DI tanks contain mixed-bed DI resin that needs to be regenerated regularly and it's always done off-site at a regen plant because the process uses dangerous chemicals. Also, nothing in a car wash requires deionized water. If you do in-fact have a mixed bed DI tank, someone sold you something you don't need and I guarantee you it is exhausted and doing more harm than good. It is a strong tell that your water professional isn't that at all if you still have tanks and don't know what's in them. You might be shocked at how much water treatment is required sometimes (when the water is especially bad), after all water makes up the majority of soapy water. There is no such thing as a "soft rinse tank" so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. PPM and TDS are not the same thing. TDS is measured in PPM (sometimes). I hate to tell you but those labels you took pictures of don't have any useful information on them. In order to help you I would need overall pictures of your equipment and maybe a rough plumbing diagram if the hoses and connections aren't clearly visible in the photo.

My manager and I went on a binge in that room. Theres two tanks as shown in picture 2. That white water tank is its city water at 597. The black tank is holding the RO/Soft water that's at 30. That white tank is an obvious problem, we are going to address this. Our plan is to bypass the city water and convert that to soft water only. and see if that helps with the problem.

Here it is in all of its glory.

I was hoping labels helped so I wasn’t blasting the embarrassing room

 

[The Waterboy]

Let's start by differentiating between mineral tanks and storage tanks. Mineral tanks are the fiberglass wrapped cylinders that are more tall than wide and have a domed top, sometimes with a control valve mounted on them. Storage tanks are made of soft plastic and are more wide than tall and they have relatively flat tops.

Picture 1: I see your water softener. It contains two black mineral tanks (on the left) with a control valve on top of the right side tank. Looks to be a Fleck 9500. The brine tank, a storage tank that has a lid and salt in it is to the right. There is a smaller mineral tank between the two, out front, that has a small control valve on it, looks like a Fleck 5600 or so. That could be a carbon filter for the RO.

Picture 2: That's your RO mounted high up on the wall. It's pre-filter looks to be mounted on the side wall down lower, kind of behind that white storage tank. Seeing as how that white storage tank is sitting inside of a skid-type setup and looks to be next to a pump, I would guess that is a buffer tank for a high pressure pump and probably not related to water treatment. That black storage tank is where your RO water sits until used, but that light green hose going into the top of it with a solenoid valve concerns me.

Pictures 4-5: The little white mineral tank with a control valve and the little black mineral tank with no control valve...no idea what those are/for.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Maybe this will help. A twin tank alternating softener is installed so that the softener can produce softened water 24/7/365 without interruption. Components of the softener and carbon tank valve need periodic maintenance.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Rather than add a DI tank to your set up, I'd concentrate on tweaking your RO system so that it produces permeate with a lower TDS. I don't like where this is mounted because you need to be keeping tabs on what the gauges tell you, and what the DM2 inline TDS meter (the small white box at the top of the control panel) tells you. At almost every carwash where we've worked, the users do not understand how the RO works, do not understand what the meters and gauges tell them, and they typically do not have the concentrate flow and pump pressure dialed in.

Your membranes are plumbed in series, with the pump output plumbed to the "in" port of the membrane on the left. The concentrate (aka "waste water") from the membrane on the left is plumbed to the "in" port of the membrane on the right. The permeate from both membranes comes out of the center ports at the bottom of each housing. The are plumbed together with what looks like 3/8" or 1/2" natural PE tubing.

You have flow gauges on your RO system to read the concentrate and permeate flow. Assuming your softener and carbon tank are doing what they should, you can adjust your concentrate flow to no less than 3 gpm.

If the RO is taking the water from 600 ppm TDS down to 30 ppm TDS, that is a 95% rejection rate. Good membranes in a properly adjusted system are capable of better. In our experience car wash owners seem to buy the cheapest membranes they can find, and the membranes may or may not be doing what they should. If you want a better measurement of the TDS of the RO water (aka "permeate"), don't take a reading of the water in the storage tank. Rather, use the DM2 TDS meter built into the RO system to get a reading of the permeate before it reaches the storage tank. You'll likely find the TDS reading from the permeate tube will be lower than the TDS reading taken from the tank.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

If you get up on a ladder and look at that DM2 inline TDS meter on your RO, here's what you'll see. This meter has cables running to two separate TDS probes. Typically, one is mounted on the RO feedwater (which should be after your carbon tank and softener), and the other is mounted on the permeate outlet line. The two probes can be independently calibrated. Press the little "in" and "out" buttons to see TDS readings from the two probes. Always let your RO system run for at least 5 minutes before assessing TDS readings.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

That's just what has always been the standard in my experience. I haven't ever had anyone complaining about spots at less than 50 ppm.

In my 25 years I've never heard of someone not getting spots at 50.

 

[Greg Pack]

My manager and I went on a binge in that room. Theres two tanks as shown in picture 2. That white water tank is its city water at 597. The black tank is holding the RO/Soft water that's at 30. That white tank is an obvious problem, we are going to address this. Our plan is to bypass the city water and convert that to soft water only. and see if that helps with the problem.

Here it is in all of its glory.

I was hoping labels helped so I wasn’t blasting the embarrassing room

ha ha, don't be embarrassed. That room looks like 87% of the car wash equipment rooms I walk into, including mine. My only pet peeves are a chronically wet floor and a room so crowded having to constantly move stuff to work on equipment.

To clarify something, soft water still spots if the TDS exceeds 50ppm. As waterboy said I've always heard 50 ppm is the threshold for spotting but you must keep in mind that you must flush ALL of the "tap" water off the car for the 50ppm to "not spot". When mine creeps past 30ppm I order new membranes and carbon for the carbon tank, and change out on a rainy day. It may be months before the TDS reaches 50 and "has"to be chnaged.

That large white tank may be capturing reject water from the RO unit and using it to wash or rinse. It's the most efficient way to run the wash because if you don't reuse your water it will go down the drain and your water/sewer will increase significantly.

When your membranes are putting out sub 50ppm and you're still spotting, consider slowing your auto speed spot free rinse cycle down. Here's an experiment to understand that concept: take a cup of RO water from the black tank and add an ounce of tap water from the white tank. Mix the two together and check the TDS. You'll find the TDS in that cup in excess of 50 and is high enough to spot. If you slow your RO pass down enough to flush ALL the tap water off the vehicle you won't spot. The lower you can get your RO TDS the more leeway you have in thoroughly rinsing but you're going to have to flush 95%-100% of the tap water off the vehicle to prevent spotting.

Also there's always going to be places that don't get rinsed off with RO well. Mirrors are often a trouble spot.

 

[The Waterboy]

In my 25 years I've never heard of someone not getting spots at 50.

Dan, I don't want to argue with you. I know you know your stuff. I have spoken with you on the phone many times over the years and I have a lot of respect for you. I am just saying what I've always heard, I'm not here preaching this as law.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

Dan, I don't want to argue with you. I know you know your stuff. I have spoken with you on the phone many times over the years and I have a lot of respect for you. I am just saying what I've always heard, I'm not here preaching this as law.

No argument intended. I've heard others claim 50 also but to have little to no spots at 50, so many other variables have to be just right and if you do creep up a bit above 50, you're screwed. At 30 it's far more forgiving.

 

[DamandaKillion]

@The Waterboy @Dan kamsickas @Greg Pack @Buckeye Hydro

Thank you all!! This information is overwhelming and abundant. But all good things that I certainly need to be successful in my goals.

Another Question, the pass of spot free rinse. Should that be pure RO water only? As it is its mixing with soft water and RO water. Why they would put un treated softwater and mix it with treated RO, doesn't add up to me. The RO discard, drains into the tunnel. Its not collected at all.

That white tank was pure city water, 100% untreated (597TDS). We switched it to softwater (60TDS) only. TDS still higher then my goal, but considerably lower then city water.

How often should Soft water tanks be rebuilt. They tried selling me one, when I had all the water "UPGRADED." I declined. I am doing research on the Fleck9500.