Inherited CarWash with purchase of a lube shop

[The Waterboy]

@The Waterboy @Dan kamsickas @Greg Pack @Buckeye Hydro

Thank you all!! This information is overwhelming and abundant. But all good things that I certainly need to be successful in my goals.

Another Question, the pass of spot free rinse. Should that be pure RO water only? As it is its mixing with soft water and RO water. Why they would put un treated softwater and mix it with treated RO, doesn't add up to me. The RO discard, drains into the tunnel. Its not collected at all.

That white tank was pure city water, 100% untreated (597TDS). We switched it to softwater (60TDS) only. TDS still higher then my goal, but considerably lower then city water.

How often should Soft water tanks be rebuilt. They tried selling me one, when I had all the water "UPGRADED." I declined. I am doing research on the Fleck9500.

The spot free rinse should be RO WATER ONLY otherwise it will spot. Like Dan said, shoot for less than 30 ppm. I'm willing to bet that they plumbed a soft water line into the spot-free water tank as a backup so that if the RO could not keep up with the demand your tank would not go empty. Empty tank means no final rinse in an automatic and also a burned up delivery pump.

The RO reject water (called concentrate) is most often discarded because it contains all of the dissolved solids that are removed from the product water and therefore isn't very useful for anything. The only exception to this that I have personally seen be successful was using it for tire cleaner in an automatic.

The white tank should be soft water. The goal is everything should be at least soft. Softening water does not change TDS though, so I am a little confused by your 596-60 statement. You need to be testing soft water for hardness, not TDS.

Water softener mineral tanks are rated for 10 years but they only have a 1 year warranty so interpret that however you want. Generally speaking, most of the time you can get about 10-15 years out of one unless it's subjected to extreme elements (hot, cold, UV, etc.). The softener media inside the tanks (called resin) and the distributor need to be replaced every 5-7 years, depending on the quality of the resin and the level of chlorine in your municipal water supply. Testing for soft water regularly is the best way to know if your softener is doing it's job or not. Also old resin can sometimes gel up and cause a pressure drop which can be very problematic.

You shouldn't need to put too much effort into learning about the Fleck 9500 other than how to set it for proper capacity and brine dosage. There is a 5 year maintenance item that is recommended by Fleck which you will more than likely want a water pro to handle for you. The internal seals and spacers need to replaced and the pistons/injector/brine valve all need to be inspected.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

@The Waterboy @Dan kamsickas @Greg Pack @Buckeye Hydro

Thank you all!! This information is overwhelming and abundant. But all good things that I certainly need to be successful in my goals.

Another Question, the pass of spot free rinse. Should that be pure RO water only? As it is its mixing with soft water and RO water. Why they would put un treated softwater and mix it with treated RO, doesn't add up to me. The RO discard, drains into the tunnel. Its not collected at all.

That white tank was pure city water, 100% untreated (597TDS). We switched it to softwater (60TDS) only. TDS still higher then my goal, but considerably lower then city water.

How often should Soft water tanks be rebuilt. They tried selling me one, when I had all the water "UPGRADED." I declined. I am doing research on the Fleck9500.

Was this setup by the same clowns who told you to not worry about the membranes? The spot free pass should be only spot free RO water.

 

[DamandaKillion]

The spot free rinse should be RO WATER ONLY otherwise it will spot. Like Dan said, shoot for less than 30 ppm. I'm willing to bet that they plumbed a soft water line into the spot-free water tank as a backup so that if the RO could not keep up with the demand your tank would not go empty. Empty tank means no final rinse in an automatic and also a burned up delivery pump.

The RO reject water (called concentrate) is most often discarded because it contains all of the dissolved solids that are removed from the product water and therefore isn't very useful for anything. The only exception to this that I have personally seen be successful was using it for tire cleaner in an automatic.

The white tank should be soft water. The goal is everything should be at least soft. Softening water does not change TDS though, so I am a little confused by your 596-60 statement. You need to be testing soft water for hardness, not TDS.

Water softener mineral tanks are rated for 10 years but they only have a 1 year warranty so interpret that however you want. Generally speaking, most of the time you can get about 10-15 years out of one unless it's subjected to extreme elements (hot, cold, UV, etc.). The softener media inside the tanks (called resin) and the distributor need to be replaced every 5-7 years, depending on the quality of the resin and the level of chlorine in your municipal water supply. Testing for soft water regularly is the best way to know if your softener is doing it's job or not. Also old resin can sometimes gel up and cause a pressure drop which can be very problematic.

You shouldn't need to put too much effort into learning about the Fleck 9500 other than how to set it for proper capacity and brine dosage. There is a 5 year maintenance item that is recommended by Fleck which you will more than likely want a water pro to handle for you. The internal seals and spacers need to replaced and the pistons/injector/brine valve all need to be inspected.

I will be addressing the R/O water tank immediately. As far as the white tank all I know is TDS. its all that has been explained. so thats as far as my testing. but it no longer had hard water (City water) going to it. I know the replaced the resins in tanks a year ago. How do I test softness?

 

[DamandaKillion]

Was this setup by the same clowns who told you to not worry about the membranes? The spot free pass should be only spot free RO water.

No, not set up. The history of the carwash, was cheap owners, never willing to invest enough to make things right. So I am willing to bet the old owner had a hand in this setup. I told them I wanted spot free cars, and would have paid pretty much anything to get that. They were confused by the setup, but never objected about hard water being used in the wash at all. Which is odd. They actually use this wash, and say its one of the best in town. I wouldn't go that far, but I do know that all the others spot severely.

 

[Greg Pack]

Recapturing of RO reject and using in the wash process is very common here.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

No, not set up. The history of the carwash, was cheap owners, never willing to invest enough to make things right. So I am willing to bet the old owner had a hand in this setup. I told them I wanted spot free cars, and would have paid pretty much anything to get that. They were confused by the setup, but never objected about hard water being used in the wash at all. Which is odd. They actually use this wash, and say its one of the best in town. I wouldn't go that far, but I do know that all the others spot severely.

Cheap sounds familiar. I've had a lot of sites where soft, non-spot free water was plumbed into the spot free tank because either A) The RO unit wasn't spec'd out big enough to keep up with demand and/or B) the RO unit wasn't working correctly so it couldn't keep up. IMHO, doing that is lying to the wash customers about what the product is they are getting.

 

[DamandaKillion]

Cheap sounds familiar. I've had a lot of sites where soft, non-spot free water was plumbed into the spot free tank because either A) The RO unit wasn't spec'd out big enough to keep up with demand and/or B) the RO unit wasn't working correctly so it couldn't keep up. IMHO, doing that is lying to the wash customers about what the product is they are getting.

I agree.

 

[The Waterboy]

To find out what the water in the white storage tank is for just look for the bulkhead fitting on the bottom of the tank (side of the tank near the ground) and follow the hose to see where it goes. I'm betting it's a buffer tank for your high pressure rinse cycle. To test for hardness you just need a simple test kit but stay away from any kind of test strips because they are not accurate AT ALL. The Hach 5-B is the kit I give to my customers when we install new water softeners in car washes. It will test for hardness in GPG (grains per gallon). You also need to be testing the water coming out of the carbon filter/going into the RO for chlorine, free and total, but mainly free. Again, do not use strips! The Taylor K-1515-A is the one I give to my car wash customers. You can find both of these on Amazon.

I am in the water treatment business, not the car wash business, but I have worked on a ton of car washes over the years because other companies that actually work on car washes don't know anything about water treatment. The sad reality is (in my experience) most car wash owners have not been properly educated about water treatment or they have been flat out lied to, and the internet is hit or miss with facts. Aside from functional equipment and using the right chemicals, water quality is the most important factor in whether or not your product is worth what you're charging. To pick water treatment as the area to cheap out on baffles me but I see it every day. It's a lot of weird equipment and a little bit of chemistry but it's not rocket science. You'll get all this figured out, just stay patient and keep asking questions.

 

[DamandaKillion]

Ya'll are going to get a kick out of this one.

I called the company out to test everything. That sold me the upgraded water system, and hit them with a little bit of knowledge. They admitted the DI tank is not needed. "but they still believe in it." and said that membranes are fine based on the 90% rule. RO is taking 90% TDS from city water.

The tech did give me the membranes to order from amazon Hydron 4040. Instead of paying his company 800.00 to do them.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

Ya'll are going to get a kick out of this one.

I called the company out to test everything. That sold me the upgraded water system, and hit them with a little bit of knowledge. They admitted the DI tank is not needed. "but they still believe in it." and said that membranes are fine based on the 90% rule. RO is taking 90% TDS from city water.

The tech did give me the membranes to order from amazon Hydron 4040. Instead of paying his company 800.00 to do them.

If they sold you 90% membranes for the water you had there they're not just morons, they're dishonest. $400 each for that crappy membranes is crazy

 

[DamandaKillion]

Favorite membrane brands? I am not looking to be cheap. I want correct.

 

[The Waterboy]

We measure RO membrane performance by rejection rate. New membranes should be over 95%, likely 97-99%. Once they get down to 90% they start failing fast. I've never heard of Hydron membranes but Dan is right, $400 is REAL high (unless labor was built into that $800). Either way (even though technically you can use any 4"x40" membrane) I suggest buying a reputable brand such as Filmtec(Dow) or Toray(CSM). These are the two we sell more than any. Generally speaking your tape-wrapped models will be cheaper than your fiberglass wrapped models but either will work in your application. You can order Filmtec membranes from Kleen-Rite and have them shipped to you. The Filmtec TW30-PRO-4040 is a very popular model. If your rejection rate is down to 90% you should get serious about checking your chlorine level before you spend the $$ on new membranes and ruin them too. And get rid of that stupid DI tank, it's doing you more harm than good.

Rejection rate = ((Feed water TDS - Permeate water TDS) / Feed water TDS) x 100

 

[Dan kamsickas]

We measure RO membrane performance by rejection rate. New membranes should be over 95%, likely 97-99%. Once they get down to 90% they start failing fast. I've never heard of Hydron membranes but Dan is right, $400 is REAL high (unless labor was built into that $800). Either way (even though technically you can use any 4"x40" membrane) I suggest buying a reputable brand such as Filmtec(Dow) or Toray(CSM). These are the two we sell more than any. Generally speaking your tape-wrapped models will be cheaper than your fiberglass wrapped models but either will work in your application. You can order Filmtec membranes from Kleen-Rite and have them shipped to you. The Filmtec TW30-PRO-4040 is a very popular model. If your rejection rate is down to 90% you should get serious about checking your chlorine level before you spend the $$ on new membranes and ruin them too. And get rid of that stupid DI tank, it's doing you more harm than good.

Rejection rate = ((Feed water TDS - Permeate water TDS) / Feed water TDS) x 100

Agreed on the chlorine testing. From what's been posted I would be surprised if the carbon filter was any good. Also, the DI unit needs to find a convenient dumpster.

We've been seeing good performance from the Global Axios membranes over the last several years. I don't think I should post pricing but if you PM me DamandaKillion I'll give you a deal if for no other reason than all the crap you've been dealt by a shady operator. You still may do better on price from Kleen Rite as they have a location in Las Vegas and I'd be shipping from Michigan.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Favorite membrane brands? I am not looking to be cheap. I want correct.

We've had good luck with Axeon membranes over the years. We stock their 4040's @ 225 psi, 150 psi, 100 psi, and 80 psi. We also have the full lineup of Filmtec membranes.

 

[DamandaKillion]

Guys!
THANK YOU!!! We replaced the membranes. I appreciate you soo freaking much.

 

[Roz]

Three observations. Apologies if already mentioned. This thread is a bit dense in text and long.

I could not see a prefilter on the system. Besides the two long steel tubes most systems have a smaller prefilter that helps reduce TDS. That filter gets changed more often as it will show a lot of dirt if not changed. Manuals say to change it every 30 days but we we keep a log and change it every 200 hours or if the TDS reading starts to go toward 5. Ours is usually 1 or 2.

Second. What ratio of spot free water to reject water do you have. As you change the mix it will affect the TDS. We usually are at a 50/50 split RO to Reject.

Third water and sewer can cost more than chemicals especially for a touch free wash. You might consider capturing and reusing the reject water for passes that mix with chemicals.

 

[The Waterboy]

Three observations. Apologies if already mentioned. This thread is a bit dense in text and long.

I could not see a prefilter on the system. Besides the two long steel tubes most systems have a smaller prefilter that helps reduce TDS. That filter gets changed more often as it will show a lot of dirt if not changed. Manuals say to change it every 30 days but we we keep a log and change it every 200 hours or if the TDS reading starts to go toward 5. Ours is usually 1 or 2.

Second. What ratio of spot free water to reject water do you have. As you change the mix it will affect the TDS. We usually are at a 50/50 split RO to Reject.

Third water and sewer can cost more than chemicals especially for a touch free wash. You might consider capturing and reusing the reject water for passes that mix with chemicals.

If you look at the pictures and read the posts, there is a pre-filter mounted on the wall below the RO. Also, pre-filters do not reduce TDS, they simply remove sediment which can clog a membrane. When you say you are "at a 50/50 split RO to Reject" that means your recovery rate is 50%. That's great but also keep in mind that not all ROs are capable of operating at a 50% recovery rate. As far as capturing the reject water (concentrate) and mixing with chemicals, that is not recommended. The concentrate is extremely high in TDS and all of your chemicals will have maximum recommended TDS levels far below this (except maybe tire cleaner). Sorry Roz, not trying to be a d**k here, just trying to prevent the spread of false information is all.

 

[Roz]

If you look at the pictures and read the posts, there is a pre-filter mounted on the wall below the RO. Also, pre-filters do not reduce TDS, they simply remove sediment which can clog a membrane. When you say you are "at a 50/50 split RO to Reject" that means your recovery rate is 50%. That's great but also keep in mind that not all ROs are capable of operating at a 50% recovery rate. As far as capturing the reject water (concentrate) and mixing with chemicals, that is not recommended. The concentrate is extremely high in TDS and all of your chemicals will have maximum recommended TDS levels far below this (except maybe tire cleaner). Sorry Roz, not trying to be a d**k here, just trying to prevent the spread of false information is all.

No worries I do not take disagreement personally. People can have different perspectives and experiences.

Not familiar with the recovery you refer to or if you are talking about system production capacity per hour or day.

Our settings work for us. We over sized our RO system so we do not run dry of RO water even when we are slammed across all the bays. The reject water is mixed with our hi and lo presoak passes which seems to be fine. We titrate and test our water and ph strength on a regular basis plus we monitor cars leaving the IBAs when we are in site.

Our old RO could barely keep up with demand which created air lock situations when slammed so we upgraded all our systems and holding tanks.

One additional minor detail about our setup. The RO reject tank helps us alleviate the demand pressure on the incoming water line when we are very busy even though the line should be fine normally. The RO reject tank is kept at a minimum fill level all the time as it will get city water supplement if the RO system has not run long enough to create adequate reject water. So the TDS in that tank is lower than if it was not mixed. But you remind me to test that water from time to time out of curiosity. Lastly our city water TDS and hardness is considered excellent without any treatment. Prior owner never had any of the water treatment systems we have in place.

 

[The Waterboy]

No worries I do not take disagreement personally. People can have different perspectives and experiences.

Not familiar with the recovery you refer to or if you are talking about system production capacity per hour or day.

Our settings work for us. We over sized our RO system so we do not run dry of RO water even when we are slammed across all the bays. The reject water is mixed with our hi and lo presoak passes which seems to be fine. We titrate and test our water and ph strength on a regular basis plus we monitor cars leaving the IBAs when we are in site.

Our old RO could barely keep up with demand which created air lock situations when slammed so we upgraded all our systems and holding tanks.

The performance of a reverse osmosis machine is measured by the recovery rate and rejection rate. There are formulas for both of these.

 

[Roz]

The performance of a reverse osmosis machine is measured by the recovery rate and rejection rate. There are formulas for both of these.

Interesting. I have no idea what our Velocity system numbers are just that they can produce 4400 GPD