Programmable Relay or PLC

[mjwalsh]

I would also like to thank 2Biz for what has been a very worthwhile & productive thread. Stuart's success further validates this. As a person (who with admittedly plenty of help) put together a very successful touchscreen-plc-ethernet connected dog wash & "in my opinion" better lighting controls via PLC with & after that project ... I most certainly see the value. My analog inputs have been accurate enough & it sounds 2Biz & Stuart's experience with the analog inputs have also been good.

My thoughts are when us operators have the option to get on the component level as much as possible & we reduce our heavy dependency on outside expertise ... we increase our chances of success. Our customers become the winners also ... just from my "birds eye view". Not that I am saying that I am the "prettiest & most glamorous bird"

mike walsh www.kingkoin.com

 

[cantbreak80]

Gotta agree...Thanks, 2Biz for starting this thread. It got me off dead center and pushed me to fix a few flaws in my system. Even though it did cost a bit to update, I'm using considerably less "secret sauce" so it's eventually gonna pay for itself.

The only problem with custom PLC/PLR applications...you become your own customer service rep/tech. I can't even figure out how some of my own programs work now!

 

[Stuart]

Stuart, do you have clear curly hoses in your bays? It makes it nice to be able to see whats left in the hoses after a blowdown WF cycle. Also, I had some pure methanol left over and am making my own WF to use it up. I mix 1 gallon of -22° WF (For Color), 1 gallon of methanol, and 2 gallons of water to make the same as -22° WF. I'm getting a current prce for methanol to see if its cheaper to mix it that way or just buy WF at $2.00 a gallon. I rarely see it any cheaper than that.

No I have blue curly hose. A little pain in the rear--they tend to not swivel at the gun so they knot up a bit. I even placed another swivel to no avail. I have found wwf at $1.69pg at a local grocery store. I looked into buying bulk barrels but I don't have enough room and the price was not as cost effective

 

[Stuart]

Follow-up, This past winter I used ~85 gallons of wwf between 2 wash locations on 2 selections in each bay.
That is about $145 for the winter. We had many long cold spells with equally the same amount of days which dipped into the low 20's but got up over freezing on a daily basis, so there was quite a lot of use as the temps rose. I did some rough figuring and figured I saved around twice the amount in water/sewer costs by installing this system.

It was not without freeze-ups though. On my rainx system I had times when the temps were below the mid 20's that the nozzle on the gun was soo cold that when a customer mistakenly turned switch to rx and turned off just after the valve opened the initial liquid following the wwf froze when hitting the very cooold nozzle.

BTW does anybody using the 1/4 curly hose have a good way of keeping it from knotting up?

I am sure with each winter season my usage of wwf and freeze-ups will fluctuate but I am satisfied with the operation of the system.

 

[2Biz]

Its interesting I used about the same amount of WF as you. I also winterize 2 selections for each bay. 4 bays total. FB and Foam gun. I used about 45 gallons of WF total. I had the same issue with freezeups on the foam gun as you. I had 35' curley hose I attributed most of the issues with. The hose was just too long and would freeze before it could get to the nozzle. I also had the switch spinner problem. My FB's and hoses never froze which gave me the idea to solve the foam gun issues.

To solve the problems, I ditched the curley hose and used straight 3/8" hose like what you use on FB and added "Delay Relays" to the chemical solenoids. I set them to 2 seconds delay. I left the air solenoids wired as normal, so when somebody switched to say Tri-Foam, a blast of air would come out the gun so the customer would know/hear something was happening. Then 2 seconds later the foam would start.

Since making those changes, I tested the foam guns down to -10° and no freezeups. Problem solved.

BTW, the 3 second delay relays I installed are neat. They have a 0-3 second adjustable dial which makes it easy to go from winter/summer.

 

[2Biz]

BTW.....Our sewage just went up by 2.5 times over a year ago. Water/sewage combined is about $15 per 1000. The HP guns can weep about 1000 gallons a day below 15°. I couldn't imagine weeping water in the FB and Foam Guns! For me, the savings is way more than double what the WF costs compared to if I was weeping water in FB and foam guns. $30 a day adds up real fast! I use less than a gallon of WF a day in comparison.

 

[cantbreak80]

[snip]... added "Delay Relays" to the chemical solenoids. I set them to 2 seconds delay. I left the air solenoids wired as normal, so when somebody switched to say Tri-Foam, a blast of air would come out the gun so the customer would know/hear something was happening. Then 2 seconds later the foam would start.

[snip]They have a 0-3 second adjustable dial which makes it easy to go from winter/summer.

My controllers "own" the entire system...during freezing temps, Foam Brush and Foam Gun solenoid outputs are automatically delayed 2 seconds. That saves quite a few gallons of sauce because everybody passes through my foam selections to get from Wash to Rinse. I believe the foam users never notice the "cold weather delay".

 

[2Biz]

You win!!! I wasn't as Ballsey as you! For now!

 

[Stuart]

On my FB there is a 1.5 second delay and the fb is about mid-bay on the coin meter side. The rx is on the other side of the bay and I have a 3 second delay on it since the customer has to walk around the car to get to the gun. I plan to keep the delays as they are for the summer unless I see a problem. 11 bays on my 2 systems.

I did watch 2 customers today pick up the rx gun as they passed and while they were still hp washing, lol, getting the hoses tangled and one guy dropped the rx and it slide back to the other side of bay.

My water/sewage is just over $10 per 1k, not as much as 2 biz but it still hurts when I open the envelope.

Again-Thanks for the thread and help.

 

[Stuart]

To solve the problems, I ditched the curley hose and used straight 3/8" hose like what you use on FB and added "Delay Relays" to the chemical solenoids. I set them to 2 seconds delay. I left the air solenoids wired as normal, so when somebody switched to say Tri-Foam, a blast of air would come out the gun so the customer would know/hear something was happening. Then 2 seconds later the foam would start.

Since making those changes, I tested the foam guns down to -10° and no freezeups. Problem solved.
QUOTE]

2biz, when you changed the curly hose did you install a boom and did you stay with the 3/8 or change the size? I have the curly 1/4 hose currently.
I really don't want to have another boom in the bays.
Thx

 

[2Biz]

I have the double boom setup. FB on the left, PS and TF gun on the right. I had the 3/8" curly hose, but to get the reach I needed I had to use the 35' long curly hose. The length was definitely the issue. After installing the 14 foot long 3/8" straight hose, I didn't have another freeze-up.

Here's the Double Boom Setup I have. I haven't had any issues with it so far. Even using straight hose, it allows the customer to get around the car with ease.

 

[wash4me]

Its interesting I used about the same amount of WF as you. I also winterize 2 selections for each bay. 4 bays total. FB and Foam gun. I used about 45 gallons of WF total. I had the same issue with freezeups on the foam gun as you. I had 35' curley hose I attributed most of the issues with. The hose was just too long and would freeze before it could get to the nozzle. I also had the switch spinner problem. My FB's and hoses never froze which gave me the idea to solve the foam gun issues.

To solve the problems, I ditched the curley hose and used straight 3/8" hose like what you use on FB and added "Delay Relays" to the chemical solenoids. I set them to 2 seconds delay. I left the air solenoids wired as normal, so when somebody switched to say Tri-Foam, a blast of air would come out the gun so the customer would know/hear something was happening. Then 2 seconds later the foam would start.

Since making those changes, I tested the foam guns down to -10° and no freezeups. Problem solved.

BTW, the 3 second delay relays I installed are neat. They have a 0-3 second adjustable dial which makes it easy to go from winter/summer.

2 Biz, thank you for sharing all of your work on this. I am still "almost" ready to turn on the washer fluid system on the wands instead of weeping water. Can you give a part number for the 3 second delay relays you used? I'm trying to decide whether to try it without delays, use a plc just for delays or install individual delays on each function. I'm only doing the wands so i think i may just go without the delays and see if i have issues.

 

[2Biz]

Here is the description, I got them off Ebay:

24VAC H3Y-2 Power On Time Delay Relay Solid-State Timer 0.1-3S DPDT 8Pins&Socket

And the link to ones selling now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24VAC-H3Y-2...129043?hash=item3f2379de93:g:nygAAOxy79JRhJ2z

So far they have worked flawlessly. They also sell ones that have a higher range of delay...But the .1 to 3 second delay works best for me since I have them set for 2 seconds. Neat thing is, in the spring, I just turn the dial to .1 seconds delay to put it back to normal. Except for the trifoam. I still like the 2 second delay so the procon pump doesn't start/stop with switch spinners. But easy to configure the way you want it.

If you do run the WF system on the HP wands, keep us informed as to how well it works. I'm still debating it!

 

[cantbreak80]

wash4me,
You're gonna want the delay...at least 2 seconds. Otherwise, the washer fluid pump will trigger after every rotary switch make/break. My washer fluid consumption dropped significantly after I added the On Delays to my program.

What's kept me from installing it on my wands is my spot free rinse system. The SFR solenoids tend to leak, sending water into a "protected bay". A user in bay 7 might cause SFR to leak into bay 3's exposed plumbing. With no way to detect the leakage, bay 3 will freeze.

If my individual bay pumps delivered the SFR, I would have had my system protecting the wands years ago.

 

[wash4me]

wash4me,
You're gonna want the delay...at least 2 seconds. Otherwise, the washer fluid pump will trigger after every rotary switch make/break. My washer fluid consumption dropped significantly after I added the On Delays to my program.

What's kept me from installing it on my wands is my spot free rinse system. The SFR solenoids tend to leak, sending water into a "protected bay". A user in bay 7 might cause SFR to leak into bay 3's exposed plumbing. With no way to detect the leakage, bay 3 will freeze.

If my individual bay pumps delivered the SFR, I would have had my system protecting the wands years ago.

Can you replace the solenoid valves or rebuild them possibly?

 

[2Biz]

Adding to the issues....I manually blow-down and inject WF into my HP guns when temps get down to about zero. 100% of the time when bringing a bay back online, a tip plugs and its always a spec of crud blocking the tip. Trying to automate this would be a disaster for me. I have since switched out the wands to SS as I know the galvanized wands had something to do with the issue. I would also think you'd have to have SS lines from the ER out to the bay....Something else I don't have. And then there are all those pesky galvanized hose ends...A lot would have to be changed for me to make this work. CB80 touched on the SFR issues.... So at this time, I'm still gonna weep water! Its been pretty fail safe!

 

[cantbreak80]

Can you replace the solenoid valves or rebuild them possibly?

Yeah...they've been rebuilt and replaced several times. The issue reoccurs with enough frequency that I'm resigned to keep the wands on water weep. Alternative designs involve time and expense that is unjustifiable, in my mind.

Sad, because I've got a doozy of a PLR program that I'm just dying to commission.

 

[Robert2181]

Can you set the SFR up like another low pressure options? Separate solenoid and check valve.

 

[2Biz]

That's pretty much the way our SFR systems are set up now. Problem is we only have one pump that delivers SFR to all the bays. All the solenoids are pressurized when any bay calls for SFR. If you had a separate SFR pump for each bay (not practical) or use each HP pump to deliver SFR, then it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[wash4me]

That's pretty much the way our SFR systems are set up now. Problem is we only have one pump that delivers SFR to all the bays. All the solenoids are pressurized when any bay calls for SFR. If you had a separate SFR pump for each bay (not practical) or use each HP pump to deliver SFR, then it wouldn't be an issue.

.

Maybe you could put a second solenoid valve spliced in the poly tubing near the existing manifold so you could jump the same wire to the new redundant valve.