Programmable Relay or PLC

[MEP001]

Now, with our washes, we've tried to implement PLC's into the business only to find out that our Siemens PLC's don't have the ability to input 24vac (which is the voltages of washes).

You have to get the right one. There's a 12/24VDC only model and 12/24V AC/DC one.

These IDEC and Siemens aren't actually PLC's, they're programmable relays. Most of the commonly used PLC's do not have separate relay inputs/outputs and can only output one common input voltage.

With that in mind, what brands of PLC's do you recommend? IDEC, others?

Programmable relays are pretty basic in what they can handle. I use them for simple tasks, but without the logic ability they can't be used for something even as simple as an accumulating bay timer. I tried writing a ladder program to emulate a timer and it very quickly exceeded the unit's memory.

 

[2Biz]

The Siemens Logo and Idec Smart Relay (FL1E) allow for 200 Function Blocks. You have to make sure your program fits within these constraints....To control 4 bays with air and washer fluid injection, its quite easy to exceed the base modules capacity. And these new relays have 50% more memory than the older ones! The program I'm using to control 4 bays uses 157 of the 200 available blocks...

 

[cantbreak80]

...The program I'm using to control 4 bays uses 157 of the 200 available blocks...

Yeah...but donchaknow that without all the User Menus that allow you to customize your blow-out timing, antifreeze timing, bay sequencing, number of bays controlled, and manual system testing...your program uses only 59 blocks.

 

[2Biz]

I was keeping that a secret!

 

[cantbreak80]

Snip:
Programmable relays are pretty basic in what they can handle. I use them for simple tasks, but without the logic ability they can't be used for something even as simple as an accumulating bay timer.

I've been running an old shampooer/vacuum on an Idec Smartrelay for about a year.

It counts 4 coins to start, outputs for 4 minutes, sounds a last minute alert, allows additional coins at any time, and even provides a 30 second grace period to restart the vac with one coin.

Additionally, with 12 coins to start, it allows use of the shampooer for 6 minutes.

It has a low level input to place the shampooer section out of service and a thermostat input that blows out the shampooer hose on temperature drop and after each use in freezing conditions.

It uses only 49 of the 200 available function blocks.

And I thought my Idec twin water softener controller was complex...ha!

Just say'n

 

[mjwalsh]

I've been running an old shampooer/vacuum on an Idec Smartrelay for about a year.

It counts 4 coins to start, outputs for 4 minutes, sounds a last minute alert, allows additional coins at any time, and even provides a 30 second grace period to restart the vac with one coin.

Additionally, with 12 coins to start, it allows use of the shampooer for 6 minutes.

It has a low level input to place the shampooer section out of service and a thermostat input that blows out the shampooer hose on temperature drop and after each use in freezing conditions.

It uses only 49 of the 200 available function blocks.

And I thought my Idec twin water softener controller was complex...ha!

Just say'n

Cantbreak80,

Wow! From our experience, how you are doing it really makes sense! On our PLC driven dog wash we allow a 60 second GRACE period with limited ability to stop the countdown clock. Nothing against Dixmor's last minute alert ... but for customer convenience ... the customers do appreciate the grace period. Do I dare say as convenient ... as count up credit card use??? Do you have a bill acceptor &/or dollar coin acceptance allowed like at our Dog Wash? 12 quarters or 3 dollar coins? The thermostat (analog?) inputs can also be worthwhile as you mentioned from our experience.

Based on what you described, the smart relays are getting better all the time in the right hands. We squeezed a lot of nifty interactions out of German made Phoenix TriSafe programmable relays on a recent project. That was geared exclusively for safety interlock interaction on 3 pieces of very high G-force equipment in our laundromat so probably most of you would not be interested in that.

mike

 

[2Biz]

It uses only 49 of the 200 available function blocks.

And I thought my Idec twin water softener controller was complex...ha!

Just say'n

You must not be using "User Menus" that would allow you to customize your number of coins to start, your cycle time minutes, or air blowdown, and manual system testing???? Or I think you'd use all of the 200 FB's! Just say'n

 

[cantbreak80]

You must not be using "User Menus" that would allow you to customize your number of coins to start, your cycle time minutes, or air blowdown, and manual system testing???? Or I think you'd use all of the 200 FB's! Just say'n

Yeah, you're correct. But...I wanted to get the unit working quickly.

And, since I know how to navigate through and change FB values with the cursor keys, I decided to leave out all that "fancy stuff".

(This is starting to sound like our "post game needle sessions" at the golf course...Ha!)

 

[2Biz]

And, since I know how to navigate through and change FB values with the cursor keys, I decided to leave out all that "fancy stuff".

(This is starting to sound like our "post game needle sessions" at the golf course...Ha!)

All in good fun!

After a few days of tinkering and adjusting, I think my delivery system needs modified. If you look closely at my air and washer fluid solenoid blocks, you'll see that I have only one delivery line (for each bay) going out to the bays. The first air blast and washer fluid cycle work great, but the second air blast has to push the washer fluid all the way from the equipment room out to the bays and is not as effective as the first air blast. Adjusting the air cycle time to about 13 seconds helps with the bays on either side of the ER, but the second air cycle isn't as effective 2 bays over.

So, getting all 3 bays to perform identically won't work with the current setup. To fix it I think I need to run air lines along with the washer fluid lines up and tie into the same point above each bay. That way the delivery system will be identical for all three bays. I can probably get by with less air than what I'm using now if I make the changes. I guess I really didn't think this one all the way through. But will be an easy fix anyway.

 

[JIMT]

2Biz.
I was told by Idec that both companies sell the same controller with there own name on it. It is a cheap way to do small projects. I have the next step up Idec controller that uses a different Idec software. It is almost unlimited on the number of inputs and outputs that can be set up.
I live in the Toledo area where are you located is you don't saying.
JIMT

 

[2Biz]

I live about 30 miles East of Cincinnati. I'll pm the exact address. You never know when you might make an enemy!

What is the model number for the new Idec? Mine is limited to 200 Function Blocks. A pretty elaborate program can be made on less than 200 blocks.

 

[JIMT]

2Biz,

The model number on my PLC is an Idec MicroSmart FC4A. The literature does not talk about Function Blocks. The salesman suggested that I use the one that you use. The FC4A cost a lot more but it uses the same software as 3 of our automatics and I had rewritten the programs that they use and I knew how to use it. I decided I didn't want to learn another programing software. The forth auto uses an Allen Bradley PLC and software which is a real pain to use.

I sure hope we can get together some time.

JIMT

 

[2Biz]

If you ever want to try the software for the FL1E, Idec has it for "Free" download on their website. The only difference between the free version and full version is they have the file transfer to the controller disabled on the Free Version.

What I call "Function Blocks" are the individual switches or types of relays you use in building your program. See the picture in post 7 of this thread. Each one of the tan blocks are "Function Blocks". With the FL1E, you are allowed a total of 200 of these blocks in the program. I've never heard of an FC4A. I'll Google it to see what it is!

 

[wash4me]

I am installing this system on the wands in our self serve bays. I am running a separate 1/4 inch line for air and windshield fluid. Is there any update on the air pressure, windshield washer pressure, and length of blow downs. Should the final blowdown mix air and fluid instead of being pure fluid?

 

[MEP001]

I'd say this needs to be trial and error. I have a blowdown controlled by a programmable relay and I'm triggering an existing relay so I had to time it until it ran just air. In my case that was 30 seconds, but it will be completely different for every setup.

I don't see any reason to mix washer fluid and air for the final blowdown, but I do believe it would be best to blow it out, let only a small amount of washer fluid through and blow it down again, at least to minimize cost.

 

[2Biz]

I am installing this system on the wands in our self serve bays. I am running a separate 1/4 inch line for air and windshield fluid. Is there any update on the air pressure, windshield washer pressure, and length of blow downs. Should the final blowdown mix air and fluid instead of being pure fluid?

I think I'm at 40 psi on air and 40 psi on the flojet. Since you are blowing out your wands, the amount of time for both air and washer fluid will be completely different than what I am using for tri-foam. The tri-foam has a much larger nozzle plus it doesn't have any kind of weep valves to over come. Like Mep said, you'll have to experiment with the time values. If it helps set a base line, I use 10 seconds of air, 5 seconds of washer fluid, followed up by 10 seconds of air.

I am glad I took the time to install this system. We've had an extremely cold winter beginning the middle of November and hasn't let up. I've only used 4 gallons of washer fluid and didn't switch the tri-foam over to winter methanol. So far I haven't had the tri-foam freeze up...

It will be interesting to see how it works for your HP wands. Keep us informed. Lately I've been weeping about a 1000 gallons of water a day through the HP guns alone. Maybe adding a system like this for the wands would be beneficial....I've got 9/10ths of the hard part done! Figuring out the system....

 

[cantbreak80]

I use 10 seconds of air at 30psi, followed by 5 seconds of fluid at 50psi. Then, a 5 second pause followed by another 10 seconds of air at 30 psi.

I believe the key to success is proper placement of the fluid and air lines in the system. I inject fluid and air into the tee/foamer directly above the boom…just before where the product line drops out of the plumbing trough.

Except for a failed G57 fluid pump, the system has functioned perfectly at preventing freeze ups of my Foam Brush and Foam Guns during this season’s “polar vortexes”. (We’ve been well below 0F several times.)

I would probably use the same system settings for my HP wands except my SFR solenoids tend to leak on occasion. SFR usage in one bay sends a bit of water to a previously protected wand…so I continue to use weep for the HP wands.

 

[2Biz]

I would probably use the same system settings for my HP wands except my SFR solenoids tend to leak on occasion. SFR usage in one bay sends a bit of water to a previously protected wand…so I continue to use weep for the HP wands.

Good point. I don't think I have that problem. But then I've never really looked at it that close. But you do have a good point. Something I didn't consider, as usual!

Oh and BTW, I'm to blame for the failed G57 pump of CB80's....I had to go and ask him how his system was working and jinxed it! I won't do that again!

 

[wash4me]

I think I'm at 40 psi on air and 40 psi on the flojet. Since you are blowing out your wands, the amount of time for both air and washer fluid will be completely different than what I am using for tri-foam. The tri-foam has a much larger nozzle plus it doesn't have any kind of weep valves to over come. Like Mep said, you'll have to experiment with the time values. If it helps set a base line, I use 10 seconds of air, 5 seconds of washer fluid, followed up by 10 seconds of air.

I am glad I took the time to install this system. We've had an extremely cold winter beginning the middle of November and hasn't let up. I've only used 4 gallons of washer fluid and didn't switch the tri-foam over to winter methanol. So far I haven't had the tri-foam freeze up...

It will be interesting to see how it works for your HP wands. Keep us informed. Lately I've been weeping about a 1000 gallons of water a day through the HP guns alone. Maybe adding a system like this for the wands would be beneficial....I've got 9/10ths of the hard part done! Figuring out the system....

On the flojet psi is that the output pressure or the psi supplied to the pumping action?

 

[cantbreak80]

40 to 50 psi air pressure to the pump.