Programmable Relay or PLC

[cantbreak80]

2Biz,
I disassembled that rascal and found the shuttle valve "bumpers" broken. The shaft over-travelled and locked. It's not a serviceable part...I can't even figure out how the factory assembles them!?! At least I now have spare viton diaphragms and check valves in case they're ever needed...which will probably be never.

IF I ever decide to apply the "secret sauce" to my wands, I'll switch the SFR to the bay pumps using Erie valves, solenoids and by-pass regulators. That would eliminate the leakage issue. ...and a 5hp repressurization system...uh oh...another project may be on the horizon!

 

[2Biz]

2Biz,
I disassembled that rascal and found the shuttle valve "bumpers" broken. The shaft over-travelled and locked. It's not a serviceable part...I can't even figure out how the factory assembles them!?! At least I now have spare viton diaphragms and check valves in case they're ever needed...which will probably be never.

IF I ever decide to apply the "secret sauce" to my wands, I'll switch the SFR to the bay pumps using Erie valves, solenoids and by-pass regulators. That would eliminate the leakage issue. ...and a 5hp repressurization system...uh oh...another project may be on the horizon!

When I had a FloJet apart, I couldn't figure out how to replace the shuttle valve either. All I did was replace the diaphragm and valves. I don't think you can buy the shuttle?


The "Secret Sauce" Weep changeover sounds like an extensive project! But has my attention!
My wife already told me if I decided to take on another big project at the wash, I may not wake up some morning! I don't know if she meant she would have anything to do with that????

I have pretty much have all the parts ready for the water heater install, but it has to warm up above freezing for more than and hour or two before I can start. I have to re-plumb the whole weep system and can't turn it off right now! It was -9° again last night!

 

[JGinther]

Just curious how much methanol or whatever anti-freeze chemical you all end up using per winter? Reason I ask is that I have been running a similar setup for 5 years, but it is a little more involved with a full PLC running the entire wash. My system also uses a surfactant formulated for methanol, and "foams" through the hose using low pressure and a high volume of air bubbles through a foamer to displace the previous water or chems. Seems like I use about 5-6 gallons of concentrate per winter at a location that does about $150k per yr in self serve...

 

[2Biz]

Our "Secret Sauce" is just -20° washer fluid. I have no where near your business levels and I've only used about 5 gallons this winter so far. And this winter has been brutal! I paid a dollar a gallon for it on clearance 2 years ago!

The "Secret Sauce" is an inside joke. I got threatened with copyright infringement when I posted a youtube video of the system I created....I took it down since I didn't need the hassle...

BTW...Nice system!

 

[Stuart]

2Biz, Thanks for your start of this thread. I have ordered a relay w/expansion module and software from Idec. I plan on using the blowdown/fluid for my foam brush system and when I get it installed-- my rainx type system.
For the air blowdown with washer fluid, where in the logic program do you insert the washer fluid leg. Do you parallel it and just time out the sequence to coincide with the air blowdown or is it inserted as a part of the air blowdown leg? Thank you for your help.

 

[2Biz]

You will have Q1, Q2, Q3, and Q4 as your Air outputs. Q5, Q6, Q7, and Q8 will be washer fluid outputs. This is for a 4 bay. So basically you will have Bay1 as a sequence of inputs, outputs, and relays in between. The outputs from Bay 1 will be Q1 (air) and Q5 (washer Fluid). You can use the "Edge Triggered Wiping Relay's" in parallel right before the outputs to control the timing and sequencing. The ETWR's (for short) has settings to set timing plus how many cycles to run. The air would be 2 cycles and the Washer Fluid will be one cycle.

You will create 4 sets of these inputs, relays, and outputs all connected to your t-stat input from the weepmizer.

Did you D/L the trial version of Idecs software and start building your program?

 

[Stuart]

I am looking for a windows 7 computer cause the software would not download on my windows 8.
I printed pictures from forum to start copying when I'm ready. Still reading the manual to understand the jargon ( things like "edge triggered wiping relays".) sounds like I will need another set of expansion modules. I have a 6 bay and a 5 bay.
So on the 6 bay It sounds like I would need 13 Inputs and 12 outputs.
Have you had the need to install a "Vatistor" on the power line? Do you have a memory/battery cartridge for the base unit?
Thanks for your help.

 

[MEP001]

You only need one input per bay, plus one from your thermostat to activate, but you'll still need expansion modules for the outputs.

Once you see the relays in the software and lay out some ladders, you'll understand them a lot more easily than reading about them (At least I did).

You can have both Windows 7 and 8 on one computer and select one OS on startup.

 

[2Biz]

I am looking for a windows 7 computer cause the software would not download on my windows 8.
I printed pictures from forum to start copying when I'm ready. Still reading the manual to understand the jargon ( things like "edge triggered wiping relays".) sounds like I will need another set of expansion modules. I have a 6 bay and a 5 bay.
So on the 6 bay It sounds like I would need 13 Inputs and 12 outputs.
Have you had the need to install a "Vatistor" on the power line? Do you have a memory/battery cartridge for the base unit?
Thanks for your help.

In order to run both Air and Washer Fluid, you need (2) outputs for each bay per function winterized. For both your 5 and 6 bay, you'll need (2) expansion modules to give you a total of (12) outputs to winterize one function. You'll have to do some research to see how many expansion modules you can stack up off one base unit if you want to do FB and a Foam Gun. I do know you are limited to 200 Function Blocks, so that may be the limiting factor? I only wanted to winterize my tri-foam so all I needed was a base unit and one expansion module to do a 4 bay.

Are you talking about a "Varistor"? Yes I installed one between the hot and common of the 24v power supply. Maybe not necessary, but the manual suggested it so I put one inline. Most 24v transformers run on the high side, so it can't hurt. My SR has ran 24-7 for over a year now with no issues.

I'm running Windows XP Pro...So my program runs fine on it. Don't they have an updated program that is supported by Windows 8?

I have some old programs I made uploaded to my server that you can download. That was back when I was making a program to blow out the lines only. They don't have washer fluid added. Once you get the software, you can download them to experiment with.

 

[cantbreak80]

A 5 bay can be controlled with 6I and 11Q...1 Base and 2 Expansion Modules
A 6 bay can be controlled with 7I and 13Q...1 Base and 3 Expansion Modules
(2 Qs per bay + 1Q to delay the product pump/solenoid during freezing conditions.)

The pump delay prevents introduction of liquid into a previously protected bay due to "switch twisters"...
otherwise, each protected device will be needlessly re-protected every time someone passes through the switch selection when the temperature is below the set point.

 

[2Biz]

A 6 bay can be controlled with 7I and 13Q...1 Base and 3 Expansion Modules
(2 Qs per bay + 1Q to delay the product pump/solenoid during freezing conditions.)

Hmmm....Don't you need an additonal Q per bay to Delay Input from each bay? Wouldn't a 6 bay need 18Q's....What am I missing?

 

[cantbreak80]

One Q controls motorized pump contactor or, a solenoid for an air-pump via two OR function blocks.

Program must work around the SR Qs which are limited to maximum of 16.

 

[2Biz]

Gotcha! I didn't know we were limited to 16 Q's......Guess I need to read the 438 page manual again!

 

[cantbreak80]

No need to read the entire manual...it's on Page 4.
Or just add I's & Q's to your project until you run out
24 I's and 16 Q's
Maximum of 4 digital expansion modules for 24 I's...the forth expansion module's Q's are unavailable, that's why there's only 16. Too much crossover into Idec/Seimens PLC territory???

See...told you that you don't need to read the manual. Unless you want to know about Analog...I never got too far with the analog stuff.

 

[2Biz]

Been Busy...Anticipating another bad winter...Upgraded Blowout-Washer Fluid-Blowout system to include FB....I also combined Tri-Foam and PS on the same gun requiring some relay magic to seperate the two but activate a single winterize cycle depending on whether PS or Tf is used.

Anybody using this, effectively, to winterize the HP guns? For some odd reason, it would feel weird getting to the wash on a 0°day and not seeing the weep running and wondering if any of the HP guns were froze? :=)

 

[MEP001]

That looks really nice.

I've been wanting to do that with the HP for years, but the winters here are so mild it doesn't come to mind to get done before winter.

 

[washnvac]

That is just ridiculous!! Nothing in the car wash room should be that neat. And yes, I am jealous.

 

[2Biz]

It wasn't that hard...Just a little time consuming. Color coding the wires really helped!

 

[Stuart]

2Biz, cantbreak80 and MEP001, Thanks for your help with the PLC and blowdown info.
I have installed the systems at both of my washes and has been online since early November. System has been workin' good so far. This Midwest cold spell is giving it a good test.
I have installed at both my locations 2 units -- on rainx and foambrush.
For my 5 bay I used 6 inputs (one per bay and thermostat input) and 15 outputs ,5 air, 5 wwf and 5 to switch the bay function with a 1 second delay on the function.
The beginning of the winter season I have seen more use of wwf than I expected in the fairer weather but I am sure that the real savings will be from now through February when our temps are much colder for longer periods of time.

Again-Thank you all. 2Biz, thanks for starting this thread!

 

[2Biz]

I don't know where you live, but I'm in Southern Ohio and it has been down-right cold this winter so far. It was 15° this morning. I winterize about the same as you, minus 1 bay and have used 16 gallons of WF so far. Roughly $16.00 a month to winterize 4 FB hoses and 4 foam guns isn't too bad. It would have cost way more to weep water!

I tried some different air pressures on my flojet just to see the results....Went from 40 psi up to 50 psi....Boy did that make a huge difference on usage... Needless to say I went back to 40 psi pretty quickly...I only had one foam gun freeze last winter. And we all know how bad that one was. We had -16° more than one night. I attribute that 1 freeze-up on a switch spinner! I don't have delays on either FB or the foam guns...If thats all I get, I'm ok with not making any modifications.

Stuart, do you have clear curly hoses in your bays? It makes it nice to be able to see whats left in the hoses after a blowdown WF cycle. Also, I had some pure methanol left over and am making my own WF to use it up. I mix 1 gallon of -22° WF (For Color), 1 gallon of methanol, and 2 gallons of water to make the same as -22° WF. I'm getting a current prce for methanol to see if its cheaper to mix it that way or just buy WF at $2.00 a gallon. I rarely see it any cheaper than that.